Adding zPower for Elite Turbo Muin


(Eryk Chmielewski) #1

Hello,

In the article

there is a statement:

 Turbo Muin: This trainer will never be compatible

Can you give a reason?

With this trainer a power calculation does not depend on the weight of the person, tire pressure or tightening rear wheel to the trainer. So is much more predictable.

But what you have to take into account that on the market there are different Turbo Muin models. For sure there are two with different power curves:

The 2013 version (this is mine description)
max. power at 20 km/h 110 watts
max. power at 40 km/h 700 watts
max. power at 60 km/h 2150 watts

The 2014 version
max. power at 20 km/h 150 watts
max. power at 40 km/h 1050 watts
max. power at 60 km/h 3600 watts

From Elite support I know that this can be distinguish by the serial number located on the trainer box. The same that you have put into Elite app on mobile (this is why they know which power curve to use). And one more to make the calculations they use 2095mm wheel size setting. So you can ask Elite support to give you all the needed data and add zPower for Turbo Muin trainer.

 

Thanks,

  Eryk


(Scott) #2

Hi Eryk - in order to do virtual power, we need the trainer to tell us speed. Are you using the ’ Misuro Blu’ sensor? This is required to use Elite’s “My Training” app. We’re looking into this.

 


(Eryk Chmielewski) #3

Hi Scott,

I must say that I haven’t run “My E-Training App” yet. I’m out of home now but it seems that it works with any ant+ speed and cadence sensor (more info below). So I will be at home on Monday and could you give me what data I should collect for you?

 

Some additional informations.

  1. Turbo Muin has a magnet on his internal wheel so you can attached any speed sensor. I should have at home some instruction showing where you should place a sensor. I will try to scan it.

  2. There are some informations on Elite site too:

  http://www.elite-it.com/en/products/trainers/app/app-my-e-training

  • Which speed/cadence sensors are compatible with the My E-Training app?
  • All speed/cadence sensors that use the ANT+ speed and cadence or the BLUETOOTH SMART protocol are compatible.

but some informations are not true:

  • I’m using a Garmin device on my bicycle with a speed/cadence sensor and ANT+ heart rate monitor. Are these sufficient to monitor my training sessions or do I need addtional ELITE sensors?
  • These sensors are enough for hometrainers that don’t require the removal of the rear wheel; the My E-Training app will monitor speed, cadence and heart rate and calculate the power generated. However, additional sensors are neccessary for hometrainers that require the removal of the rear wheel.

this is not true, because Turbo Muin require the removal of the rear wheel but it works with any speed ant+ sensor.


(Eryk Chmielewski) #4

Hi Scott,

here is instruction how to mount sensors:

http://cdn.elite-it.com/sites/default/files/downloads/INSTALLAZIONE%20SENSORE%20ANT%2B%20PER%20MY%20E-TRAINING_0.pdf


(Eryk Chmielewski) #5

Hi Scott,

I’ve collected some data but I’m unnable to export tcx file. It seems not only me have this problem:

  http://www.elite-real.com/en/forum/exporting-workouts-my-e-training-app

Looking on displayed power in e-training app it looks like the picture that I’ve got from Elite support is correct:

10km/h = 30watts

20km/h = 150watts

30km/h = 453watts

40km/h = 1035watts

 

I did some additional rides to collect data for 15, 25, 35 and 45km/h and this is what I’ve got:

45,3km/h = 1487watt

45,2km/h = 1474watt

44,6km/h = 1425watt

44,4km/h = 1401watt

 

35,3km/h = 718watt

35,1km/h = 709watt

34,9km/h = 700watt

34,8km/h = 690watt

 

25,4km/h = 284watt

25,1km/h = 274watt

25,0km/h = 272watt

24,8km/h = 267watt

 

15,2km/h = 75watt

15,0km/h = 72watt

14,9km/h = 71watt

 

I hope this will help you to create correct zPower for Turbo Muin.

 

 

Using binary search I was able to find serial number for old and new version of Turbo Muin. It looks like from 10000 (the lowest number that you can insert into the application) to 10469 is old version and from 10470 is new version. So on the market there are only 470 Turbo Muins - probably most of them are first test examples - that will have different power curve. My Turbo Muin has serial number above 18000.


(Maurice van Roosmalen) #6

Hi Scott,

I also would love the turbo muin to be supported. I have a 2013 model and already use it in combination with a Wahoo speed/cadence ant+ sensor on Trainerroad. If they can do it, it must be easy for you Zwifty programmers.

Good luck developing this piece of art,

Maurice


(Eryk Chmielewski) #7

Hi Maurice,

could you check your Turbo Muin serial number (S/N)? Because if you have it above 10470 than you should have new model.


(Maurice van Roosmalen) #8

The  serial number is 10118, so it’s the old one.


(Eryk Chmielewski) #9

For the version 2013 the best expression it seems to be:

Power = 2.30615942 * Speed - 0.28395558 * pow(Speed,2) + 0.02099661 * pow(Speed,3)

(speed in km/hr)

This expression will be used in new version of Golden Cheetah

  https://github.com/GoldenCheetah/GoldenCheetah/issues/1075

also Trainer Road should have similar, because they wrote:

  TrainerRoad We don’t have a unit but DC Rainmaker should have some of this data for us when he does his review.

so they had the same source of data for calculations.

 

Maurice could you post some data from TrainerRoad, for example power @20km/h, @30km/h, @40km/h (or 35km/h) to verify this?

 


(Lucio Peterle [ITA] WBR(B)) #10

The muin have an extreme power curve (I own one).

In my opionion is better to leave it’s use with a pm, too easy for a cheater… use it’s zPower with a dumb roller and ready to crush V.Nibali … :slight_smile:


(Eryk Chmielewski) #11

I can’t agree, because

<warning - spoiler for the cheaters>

Elite Red Roller has only:

 12% lower power @ 200 watts

 15% lower power @ 400 watts

than Turbo Muin and probably it is obvious choice for the cheaters

</warning>

this is one point and the second, from what I see the most valuable is polka dot jersey and in the mountains the most important is weight so often on the flat part I saw people riding with the same speed as me and on the board I saw almost twice higher w/kg ratio for them. You can check segments on Strava too - and person with average 454 watts having the same time with person having average 759 watts.

 

So for me cheating should be eliminated by very good algorithm and restrictions. For example checking if you are not above cat 2 (check picture at the bottom). Checking watt relation to heart rate (it would be odd if someone has 400 watts and heart rate below 120bpm). Not allowing to set weight below 62kg for the mens or to not take weight into account at all (because this is only a game).

 

 

 


(Lucio Peterle [ITA] WBR(B)) #12

Elite Red Roller stands for Elite E-motion?

I disagree to set minimum weigth below 62kg because I’m 59 :slight_smile: but of course I haven’t so much absolute power and I don’t think Zwift will implement HC climbs like Passo Stelvio in the future :slight_smile: so if I can burst a 2minutes 5w/kg  in watopia miniclimb in the flat I will be catched by a bigger cyclist in very short time …


(Eryk Chmielewski) #13

Elite Red Roller stands for Elite E-motion?

in Zwift setup there is Fluid in the name too. I see on some review that E-motion has “electronic ANT+ resistance unit” but I don’t see anywhere information that this resistance is based on Fluid.

And the max power for E-motion for 20km/h is 220 watts (Muin has only 150 watts) according to:

http://cdn.elite-it.com/sites/default/files/Elite_Trainers_Overview_EN_10.pdf

 

 

 


(Jason K) #14

Good news! Elite support will be added in our next update! This will include support for the Turbo Muin using a Misuro B+ or  Cad/Speed Sensor Ant+, 20 Cm.


(Jan H. Hansen) #15

The powercurve for the Elite Turbo Muin 2014 edition and later are:

P= 5 + 1.02 x V + 0.001 x V x V + 0.015436 x V x V x V

P= power in watt

V= speed in km/h

x = multiplier

The wheel size shall be 2070 mm for this trainer in order to get correct speed and power curve.

Yes, the elite myEtraing software also shows 5 watt at zero speed.

The above equation shows power within +/- 1% of values given by elite company and can be verified by using the elite my Etraining software.

This power curve can not be used for the 2013 edition, that is all trainers with a serial number less than 10470.