TrainerRoad and Zwift Cloning Power Figures?


(Craig Howard WBR B) #1

In a bid to use both programs at the same time with a goal of them both fed identical power figures, would the following be possible in a virtual power situation?

Run TrainerRoad and pair all ANT+ devices and enable “TrainerRelay” (broadcasts the ANT+ Power signal)
Add second ANT+ dongle
Run Zwift and pair “power” (which is the broadcast from TrainerRoad)

Doing this would then mean Zwift is fed the exact same watts that I base my structured training on from TrainerRoad, but then I also get the fun/stay focussed factor from Zwift!

Thanks in advance


(Kyle Polansky) #2

I’m not quite sure I understand your question. If I’m understanding it correctly, and you just want to use 2 programs with the same devices. Just open one program at a time and pair everything, then open the 2nd program and pair everything again (but this time it will use the 2nd ANT+ stick).

See this post for more information on this configuration: https://support.zwift.com/hc/communities/public/questions/201416909-Two-Ant-Sticks?locale=en-us

Just a brief overview of how ANT+ works, you can have a single device (power meter lets say) broadcasting to multiple ANT+ sticks or head units. However, you can only “pair” one ANT+ device per ANT+ stick (typically although under certain configurations I guess it’s possible). Therefore, there shouldn’t be any reason to re-broadcast your data.

If you are asking about re-broadcasting virtual power, I would discourage this and just use Zwift’s virtual power. This will ensure that Zwift doesn’t think you are using a power meter, and if there are any oddities, you won’t get suspected of cheating.


(Craig Howard WBR B) #3

I have quite a convoluted set-up but I have a vision of what I’d like to achieve. Ideally, power figures that are identical but not broadcast from my power meter.

The power meter is on the dirty, usually wet bike that I’m not allowed to bring into the house (slapped wrists!)

I have a second bike that’s mainly left on my turbo set-up indoors. I use this for TrainerRoad sessions using a TrainerRoad virtual power curve from a turbo that isn’t currently supported on Zwift but it IS calibrated with the power meter on my outdoor bike.

Surely Zswift being fed the broadcast calibrated virtual power from TrainerRoad is getting an accurate representation of my true power output based off my weight which is 134lbs.

My aim is to create my set-up as per the link you posted with TrainerRoad running in horizontal mode. Why would I be suspected of cheating - surely watts are just watts? I’m trying to ensure that my power output is true and consistent so I can train in the correct zones when indoors. If I wanted to cheat, it’d be easier to simply enter a weight of 20lbs into my profile :smiley:

Or does Zwift use a completely different algorithm which skews other values?

Thanks


(Allan Watkins) #4

In the future Zwift will have a way for users to “flag” a rider, likely for some unmentioned type of scrutiny. This is a feature not yet implemented, but you do not need the virtual power from TR as Kyle said since Zwift will handle more devices as time goes by.

I would be highly suspect of this method for tampering of their broadcast data. it probably would be possible for someone to modify their virtual power that’s being broadcast out through the ant+ stick used to increase wattage.

Going on a tangent here lol. But if you can do that why even bother riding? Just setup a bot that will ride for miles on end with varying power between x and y values at random times and between x and y during ascents / descents when a gradient is detected.

=)


(Bill Verdon) #5

I was wondering the same thing as the OP… I have the InRide POD that allows me to calibrate for power so I don’t have to rely on virtual power aspect and I will often use the ANT+ relay to my Garmin to show my power…works great! Cool stuff. Theoretically you should be able to do just what you were asking…have two ANT+ devices on your PC…one used to transmit the output from your TR feed, the other should be able to receive the signal into the other ANT+ device and feed that into the zwift. Ideally, you shouldn’t need do do this at all…the data is there…zwift should be able to feed that into the program. I think the challenge there would be how do you force each program to only use the ANT+ device you want to? Potentially…everything could feed into both devices at the same time…and probably be a pile of mess… :slight_smile:


(Kyle Polansky) #6

I’m assuming that this is possible, although like Bill said, it may be hard to tell which program to use which stick. Perhaps it would be easiest to set up on 2 separate computers (one running Zwift, one running Trainer Road).

The reason I mentioned cheating is because Zwift will “think” that you are using a real power meter since the data is coming from an ANT+ power meter source. Because virtual power can be inaccurate (especially during short sprints), it may be possible to put out unrealistic power numbers. If this is Zwift’s Virtual Power, they will just think “we need to refine our formulas”, but if they see it coming from a power meter (especially one with the “name field” likely to be something containing TrainerRoad instead of an actual power meter brand name), then it will seem very suspicious since most people don’t use this sort of set up.

I guess my “safe” answer would be to submit a feature request to add your trainer’s power curve (or ask for a calibration mode). However, I think as long as you are doing “normal” riding and not trying to get sprint jerseys you will probably be fine using the method described.


(Bill Verdon) #7

I will be getting a second ANT+ stick next week and will test this out on the same laptop. According to some of the other posts, if you start each program up separately, they will grab only one ANT+ device at a time…so my plan is to start up TR and make sure everything looks good with my readings, then start up zwift and hopefully the TR power relay feeds into the other ANT+ device for power. If this works…I wonder what zwift would use the trainer info during any of the calculations since it would theoretically not be using virtual power…or zpower for anything…


(Casey Schumm [X]) #8

Based on your description I believe it would work.

I also believe if your calibration is accurate in trainer road - as you state it is - you would actually be at a disadvantage in sprints. Because a Virtual power sprint requires you to spinup the wheel for a few seconds before you see the big watts. In sprints real power meters are going to have the advantage if the calibration is accurate.

I don’t see where any of this is a problem as long as the calibration is right. If you end up doing a 19 w/kg run for a full lap (like I saw the other day) then yes someone is going to call you out.

I’m an OCD numbers guy and if I had a setup like you describe I would probably want to do the same thing. Mainly be you “know” the TR numbers are right based on your own PM. Once Zwift has your true trainer calibrated for zpower then you can reevaluate if you use zpower or the TR rebroadcast.


(Craig Howard WBR B) #9

Me also being the OCD numbers guy too and having logged on TrainerRoad for years using my method, I really wanted to keep figures in line.

Today I went out and bought a second Suunto ANT stick and the test works flawlessly. TrainerRoad, my Garmin 800 and Zwift are all now fed the same data. I did a quick test lap of the island and it was spot on. Being able to run TrainerRoad in horizontal mode under Zwift now allows me to do structured training if I wish or if the weather is rubbish outside (snow and 40mph winds today!) I can happily cruise around the island and be immersed while crunching out base miles.

Overall, Zwift is proving its worth to me already. Just having other real people to ride with online is a massive appeal to me as its a constant carrot dangling on a stick seeing someone whose a real cyclist ahead. I have no doubt I’ll be a long term subscriber to the service once out of Beta. Especially with all of the great ideas and feature requests being undertaken by the development team.


(Bill Verdon) #10

Just to follow up…just got my 2nd ANT+ stick and tried this…worked like a champ! I start up the TR program first, then I warm up and calibrate my InRide. TR has a feature that allows you to "relay) the power to another device via ANT+…then I start up the zwift and it worked like a champ. Now my power readings from my TR match with zwift. Interestingly enough, the zwift zpower was consitantly 30 watts lower than what I get from my calibrated InRide POD. When I turn on just the virtual training on my TR without the InRide the power readings are a bit higher than without it (based off my previous FTP scores…but if you look at these numbers enough time…you gen generally tell they are higher).


(Bryan Chen) #11

I just did something similar today with the KICKR. Two ant+ sticks + TrainerRoad with a preset plan of intervals in ERG mode. One ant+ stick gets all my HRM/cadence/KICKR with TrainerRoad for ERG mode intervals. Then in TrainerRoad I have the TrainerRelay option turned on to repeat those ant+ values out. In Zwift with the other ant+ stick, I pair the power to the power being rebroadcasted from TrainerRoad and pair the HRM/cadence with the raw devices. Result is a perfect way to do ERG driven intervals from TrainerRoad while powering your avatar in Zwift. I used to have problems with intervals in Zwift due to spinning out my top gear in KICKR controlled mode.

Perfect intervals: https://www.strava.com/activities/250127555/analysis


(Craig Howard WBR B) #12

And in a similar set-up except I have Zwift lock on to the re-broadcast power and cadence from the spd/cad GS-10.

So Zwift locks to Garmin Power and Garmin Cadence (I don’t know how it work out it’s from Garmin?

I did TrainerRoads - Ickes intensity session last night but built a custom workout to follow with a stepped warm up and then 15 mins after session for just enjoying the Zwift Island ride and cooling down a little.

https://www.strava.com/activities/250048712

Works perfectly.


(Craig Howard WBR B) #13

Here’s the analysis
https://www.strava.com/activities/250048712/analysis

I did two mega sprints :wink: The first one took the green jersey and then I concentrated on my session :stuck_out_tongue:


(Harvey Miller) #14

Does anyone know how to do this with a Computrainer?


(David Armstrong TX (B)) #15

If one computer was reading ant+ and the other was reading blutooth, assuming your Power and cadence data can all be transmitted over both protocols,  you could run a dual setup like that.  

My ipad reads bluetooth for zwift , and picks up data from the powertap hub for power and cadence.  I could set up the computer too and have it read ant+ power and run trainer road.  I think this is possible.