Steering being overpowered

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Hi all, as someone who is racing regularly in ZRS, ZRL, TTTs and Ladder races, my teams and I have started to notice that steering is overpowered. I’ll start of by saying I love Zwift, and everything it offers, but steering is a bit too good…

When a team uses steering in tandem, they typically all steer to the extreme of the road (tip if you haven’t tried it). This places those with steering outside of where Zwift automatically places riders making it impossible to get any draft at all unless you also have steering. They can then swerve aggressively too to get you of of their draft. While we understand that a small advantage should be gained with steering (as is the case round corners and with braking), it is impossible to beat in a race against equally matched teams.

Recently, one of my teams were NEVER in the opponents draft. We tried dropping back and accelerating on (works with non-steering opponents), getting ahead and being overtaken but nothing worked. Even on a hill when we got to within 3 seconds, the whole team steered out the way. With matched power, normalised power and shorter efforts, we were 1-1.5minutes behind the opponents - demonstrating how overpowered steering is.

We knew we had no chance which is taking the fun out of racing. The only effective way we can counter it is through a sustained climb where the draft isn’t as strong, but on the flat or rolling courses, with lots of descending, it’s impossible to stay in a group.

We think that it needs to be balanced more. My propositions are:

  1. preventing steering going so far to the extremes of the road (and outside of where Zwift will place you automatically), thus allowing non-steerers to get draft still if ridden correctly
  2. increase the range that Zwift will put a rider, to allow them to reach the extremes
  3. limit the aggressiveness of steering to stop people swerving repeatedly and rapidly to get out of draft

These would allow races to then be defined based on power, and race craft rather than who has the most money to spend on extras. The advantage should be there but not such a gulf between the options.

Thoughts?

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My suggestion is that riders without a steering device should be auto-steered according to a reasonable guess about what their intent would be. I believe their intent would be to get in the draft, so they should follow the steering riders ahead of them.

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I agree 100%!

The issue we have found is that people can steer so far to one side of the road that us non-steerers will never get in the draft. So we were having to crank out a lot of power to stay alongside the other team. We tried all the tricks we knew, but nothing worked.

Tweaking things to allow non-steerers to get on the back of steerers would be ideal. But there would also have to be some changes to steering so that people don’t swerve left and right to break things that way. My suggestion here would be to turn down the steering sensitivity or change things so you can’t change direction within x seconds of the previous direction change… not sure how possible this would be but it would be appreciated!

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In my experience steering TTTs vs non steering TTTs isn’t as much about the steering, it is about the grouping of the riders.

When we try to actively steer it just causes chaos. If we do not steer at all and just ride the grouping of our riders is much, much tighter than non steering TTTs.

I have also tested the difference of positioning with pace partners with steering enabled and disabled. With steering enabled my guy always seems to be in a better position.

When it comes to racing, I find very little benefit unless you are in a small group.

Also I like steering for the reasons you don’t like it.
When riding outside and attacking you move away to make it harder for others.

I agree with you about the cost aspect of steering.
RGT had steering devices or keyboard. I believe indieVelo has keyboard option as well.

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The problem on Zwift compared to outside is that not everyone has steering, so in a race situation the team or riders with steering have an advantage that those without don’t. In real life everyone starts even and it’s how you deploy tactics that counts.

TTTs are one thing, but as Luke described (full disclosure, I was trying to DS the race he mentioned earlier) when one team has steering and another doesn’t there is very little you can do against it on a flat/rolling course. The effect of the steering at the moment is too great.

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I agree with the TTTs and it making it harder, we get our steerers to not use it for TTTs (one of our riders almost steered off a bridge once, now that would be a fun addition if you got a bit steering heavy (and one of my team said that having that ability would actually make them buy the controllers :joy:)). But the reason it’s hard here is because 6/8 of our riders don’t use the controllers so can’t follow the steerers draft. A full team could ace a TTT if they all steer to one side of the road the whole way (try it!)

I also find if you’re in a free ride or a monthly series race, there won’t be as much difference because there are lots of other non-steerers to work with, so the benefit is smaller (but still there)

But in a 5v5 team race, or a ZRL race, where you have a team working together with it and steering so far to one side of the road, the non-steerers then get stuck in the middle of the road with no draft. It’s the coordinated aspect which makes team racing unbalanced.

I should make it clear that I think being able to steer and attack is a great thing and resembles real life racing! But the issue is that anyone who isn’t steering then can’t follow a wheel (as you would in real life) and that is where the issues lie (in a race yesterday, at no point in the race did our non-steerers get in the draft of the other steerers, which included one of my team. And I mean no point, not once). This is why I think adjusting the algorithm in one way or another, either to restrict the aggressiveness of steering or to increase the ability to draft a steerer if you don’t have steering.

So I agree that it’s functionality is great and I like the idea of them, but the current implementation makes it a bit too good, especially if there is no alternative for those unable to make the investment. Even options on the companion app to steer or something would go some way to helping.

So I think we’re on the same page for this, but just maybe differ on the strength of the benefit and implementation

Great points too (this is my first forum post and I’ve only been racing since September and the community aspect has never felt so great!)

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Implementing non-linear input scaling could greatly improve the realism of steering. The concept is to modify the game’s input response so that small movements of the steering pad result in minimal in-game movement, while larger, deliberate movements lead to proportionally greater in-game steering adjustments.

An additional approach is to implement a “deadzone” for steering inputs. This means that small movements of the steering below a certain threshold would not cause any steering changes in the game. The main purpose of this modification is to filter out unintentional or minor adjustments that are not meant to change the bike’s direction.

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This would definitely reduce some of the minor adjustments that people may make accidentally, and would also mirror the real world a little more. There should also be a maximum turning angle (which in theory should change with speed, with greater speeds reducing the ability to make large turns and thus swerving suddenly to stop others getting draft), which would be pretty simple to implement computationally! I like the idea!

My question would still remain regarding how it’s currently not possible for non-steerers to get in the draft when people have steered as far to the left (or right) as possible. So an additional tweak to the limits Zwift will put non-steerers, or increasing the ability to draft at the extremes of the road (currently it seems that in a non-steering group, the head of the peloton will be central on the road and therefore if people remain on one side or the other, they will never get non-steerers behind them).

I definitely love the idea of a dead-zone though and I didn’t realise that this hadn’t already been implemented - thanks for bringing it up!

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I believe that offering non-steering riders alternative methods to steer, such as using keyboards or the Companion App, could be the most effective way to create a fair playing field and guarantee equal opportunities for all participants. Any other approach would only be a partial solution.

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But then they can’t sell beta hardware.

Steering itself isn’t overpowered.

The poor ability of our avatars to sit in the draft is a major issue.

Unless you can provide evidence to event hosts that steering is “ruining” the experience, you’ll have to take it up to said host. As steering being disabled is decently commonplace.

As for falling back 1.5 minutes; I hate to say it, but even if you were to use steering to cut distances on a route like Uber Pretzel, you’d be struggling to cut 90 full seconds out; so I’d be hard pressed to believe that was the only actual difference as to losing that much time.

For the folks who think steering is some godsend, it’s always apparent that they haven’t experienced it, and realized it’s equally as flawed, and takes far more effort to make good use of it than those without. It’s extremely far from “overpowered.” in terms of cutting corners to save time; very little time is saved. Draft, sure. But it also requires constant input; as those with steering have to constantly fight the other issues steering has had all these months (year?), and trust me, that is… far far worse.

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I believe it’s important to acknowledge that while steering may not be an entirely “overpowered” feature, it does introduce some interesting elements to the racing experience.

Being able to strategically position oneself in the draft, break away from the pack, and execute tactical moves can provide riders with steering a competitive edge. It opens up new possibilities and adds an extra layer of depth to the gameplay. This is where the power of steering comes into play.

It’s important to note that the time saved from steering may not be as significant as some people believe, especially when it involves cutting corners. While steering can help with cornering and descending, in the grand scheme of things, it probably won’t lead to substantial time savings in race results.

That being said, it’s crucial to strike a balance when considering the pros and cons of steering. While it may not be a complete game-changer, it does bring in new strategies and dynamics that can make races more interesting and challenging. The key is to find ways to level the playing field and prevent steering from giving some riders an unfair advantage.

The objective should be to create a racing experience that rewards skill and strategy while still being inclusive and accessible to all riders, regardless of whether they have steering or not.

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i can see it being annoying in ladder, but the organisers run their series the way they want to at the end of the day and they choose to have it enabled and it’s up to the teams to negotiate between themselves whether they wanna use it in a given event or not. conversely, DRS and i think ZRL have it disabled because that’s how they like to run their series, though I can’t remember if ZRL are planning to enable it next round so don’t quote me on that

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Thanks for these points! The controllers offer a lot more than just steering, and increase the ability to interact with the UI, and I do agree that steering is a great idea to add realism and valuable nuances to the experience! I agree that the issue is the implementation of the avatars and those that are then unable to pick up the draft at the sides of the road.

On this, you’ll see in pacer groups, the front of the peloton is always in the middle of the road, and no pack will ever sit behind those at the edges - and this is where steering wins - you can place many riders on the edge, and then non-steerers will never sit behind them

I should add the latest race we had was on cobbled climbs x2 (18km), on the uber pretzel 90 seconds is almost nothing (although my back side would’ve loved 90seconds less when I did the route :joy:) but on shorter routes it’s a lot! The numbers here for myself and a rider 90seconds ahead were almost identical (like wierdly close), but. I had no draft, they had draft from 3 or 4 riders. I was not the strongest rider in the race, but our stronger riders also could not compete.

The savings from cutting the corner are small, I agree! And these can also be easily overcome by non-steerers through a short burst of power. But the draft, you can hold down left and steer to the left and you’ll cruise with your team away from those without drafting. I know that it takes time to get used to and use correctly, and it seems teams have now figured it out after a few months!

So I agree with you that it may not be steering itself that’s overpowered, but it’s exacerbating the weaknesses in the algorithm for those that do not have steering to get in the draft. Would you agree with that statement?

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I know that a few things were brought up regarding steering in the latest ladder survey. I’m thinking that one option here would be to add a “steering on or off” button in the event creation tab, which would go some way to changing things. In the mean time we’ll be requesting no steering to cover this, but I definitely thought it was an interesting discussion point and was interested to hear things from different view points, and to make Zwift aware of some things which make steering a little unbalanced at the moment

I also believe that ZRL won’t be introducing it for now. If they did in the future, we’d then find teams of 6 TTTing away on one side of the road I think!

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I have an idea, make the extremities of the road (where the steering folk love to hide) dirty with all sorts of things that could cause those riders to randomly get virtual punctures.

Then they’d have to wait 30 seconds to get a replacement wheel and tyre. :wink:

Then they will have to decide, do we steer and try to drop others out of our draft and risk a puncture and get delayed…

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There was talk of it last round and they dropped it; either it lacked interest, or enough people said no. I would make a safe assumption this will continue for the “fairness” of sport, and trying to be equal opportunity for all racers especially due to its size; also if I recall, the way it was supposed to be handled was steering was going to be its own unique ‘series’ or events. So only folks who wanted to join the steering races, could.

Steering has brought up lots of topics like this before, and the way each of these threads have gone down one way or another, is from feeling as though they’re only losing because they watched someone pay for steering and managed to still have a better / stronger race, but ignore that.

The way I’ve always experienced it trying it myself a few times in events is, after watching someone cut a corner, tried it myself the next week, and it was far more of a struggle trying to keep my own avatar in the draft at times, and the corner cuts… weren’t doing me any favors (I’m small and low watts, so of course going solo is a bad idea lol)

100%

I’ll also fully agree that we can steer too far into the turns on the turns (lanes too wide), which at the bare minimum, makes things visually awkward when you see people cutting through grass on a large portion of the turns already.

To me, the reality of why steering seems unfair is purely down to that aspect of getting to go one / two “lanes” more than non-steering riders, and pop yourself out of the draft. However, I still think most people don’t realize how little time is saved, and more importantly, how much more effort is required, to make those corner cuts work. As a team doing a TTT effort, I can see it actually being useful; solo riders… not much, you’re putting yourself in just as bad of a spot as anyone else being alone, so you have to really make it work, on top of having to concentrate on the steering.

Which brings up the other point I always mention and have already is that steering does require far more focus and concentration than just putting all efforts into pedaling a little bit harder. To make steering “work”, you have to be on top of it all the time. Granted, this is becoming slightly better as the steering code is fixed (remember, it wasn’t all that long ago steering riders would get slammed to one side of the road after going idle for a few seconds).

One day the code will be fixed and these differences will be as small as I try to make them seem in these responses; so I’m not fully disagreeing, but what I am doing is stating that the bigger issue is the flaws in the code more than anything else. Steering riders and non-steering riders still don’t seem to pick up the same lanes and use draft the same way; which shouldn’t be the case.
Another thing I’ve noted recently is steering riders can still basically phase through other riders in small packs, ala PD3 and before; which only shows that however the steering function works, is also breaking PD as well…

Steering has gone a long ways, and clearly still has a long ways to go, if everyone can agree on one thing, it’s surely at least that.

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Can you show evidence this is occurring? Video of it?

I have steering and certainly am not able to easily get through packs unless I steer around them. So I usually just forget about steering. I don’t even use the Zwift play controllers, they are put away.

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Not packs; I’ve noticed this on our TTT’s, we had one teammate who would join us sometimes and always kept his steering on.

It wouldn’t happen 100% of the time, but it did happen fairly often.
Skimming through our TTT photos I’m not seeing any (I would’ve avoided taking a screenshot of the team when he was literally ‘inside’ someone else to be fair).

But yeah, not packs; technically solo riders; while the rest of us are out behind in the draft on the WTRL TTT.

edit - in fact, looking back at photos this ONLY seemed to occur when he was up at the very front. In screenshots I have; if he were any other number of riders back, he would clump up like the rest of us and keep distance.
So only seems to happen with 1 other rider / no pack.

If any draft was being saved though I don’t know. What I can say for sure though is he could basically overlap wheels with someone and not be totally out in the wind. Which isn’t something I’ve seen anyone else do since PD4 days, or users without steering solo.

Well, if you call this evidence, this is all I can provide picture wise:
image

When is the last time you saw a rider inside another? lol, been a while!

This is probably the only other picture I have showing what I mean:

2024-04-04_19-31-45_0_clean
2024-04-04_19-31-45_0_clean1920×1049 361 KB

Note front bike positions and how close they are; versus me and rider next to me (me in Scotty hat)

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With steering I’m still not able to overlap wheels or zoom through people. I still get blocked and if I want to try to get out of a pack by steering I can be blocked by those other riders around me. I have to put the power down and blast through the pack before I can steer.

All up the steering ends up being a nuisance.

Only benefit is when you want to ride alone and someone insists on staying right on your wheel and no amount of accelerations will give them the message. You can steer away from them and be left alone. That wouldn’t be necessary if there was a ride alone mode that didn’t involve disconnecting network.

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I’m not sure if it’s just the TT bikes or what. I know what you mean, once you enter a pack, the code definitely either fully disables, or just mostly disables steering, even if trying to escape out the outside.

So I’m not sure if this “pack” code doesn’t function either on TT frames (because by default they aren’t draftable, so something is screwy already right?), or because no “pack” is sensed when we’re in a pace-line.

But yes, this is really the only time I experience seeing steering riders phase into others really. But it is still possible in some circumstances; and that much I think should be noted.