ZRS is build to replace CE? But why does it have to be binary? Wouldn’t it be better to have both system and allow for the choice of choosing which you want to use?
Doesn’t hinder the game having 2 systems?
it doesnt and while the sentiment may have changed, or change in the future, i believe zwift have said there are currently no plans to get rid of CE just because ZRS is coming. zhq are probably gonna use it for their races, but the community are and always have been free to do different stuff. if they want to. there has always been something out there for pretty much anyone thanks to community organisers
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They still allow event managers to not use CE or ZRS, ie, the old ZwiftPower system where A’s can enter D category if they want. By now most of them have adopted CE, but they’re not forced to do that yet. I imagine it will be much the same. If the people creating events revolt against ZRS or delay adoption, CE could remain in use for a long time.
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CE will remain for points type races currently so its not going anywhere.
Though im not sure why ZRS cant be used to place users in pens with the results table excluded (admittedly it does get a bit messy).
Right now, ZRS is basically just a way to sort the pens. It does not really offer any racing framework besides a global ranking from 0 to 1000 and fluctuating pen boundaries. As a racer, it leaves you feeling a bit lost since you cannot really tell where you belong to, you have nothing to identify with. Unless you are one of those elite B/A/A+ guys focused on improving the ZRS ranking, there are not many other objectives to pursue. If you go from ZRS 320 to 410, what have you actually accomplished?
In contrast, the CE utilises a categorization system with constant boundaries, which provides a clearer framework and makes it much easier to understand or identify with. You have the chance to reach the top in your category or be higher in national RR rankings than your superior A-category friend. From this angle, CE framework is definitely more motivating/rewarding for all sort of racers and provides better insight into your success than winning ten races and moving from ZRS 320 to 410.
There are valid justifications for the coexistence of both systems until ZRS evolves into a more advanced framework beyond a mere sorting algorithm, should such an advancement is possible. I am just afraid that a lot of popular races will not have any other option but ZRS and it would be difficult for organisers to create a CE alternative. For example, will ZHQ allow CE Tiny race?
At this moment I would take a CE race over a ZRS one without much doubt.
CE has its flaws like the minimum Watt floor of 150+ to become a pen C racer, but generally, lightweight (often juniors) with >3.2 zMAP and/or >2.625 zFTP don’t tend to be every CE race… Or at least they didn’t when I last raced CE a few months ago.
I used to be reasonably close to CE pen D serial zMonthly winners like Petr Slíva and Dominic Harrison over shorter races, but I suspect they would spank me in those and spank me even harder in 30-60min races, my fitness and stamina have dropped since around Easter this year.
I’ve yet to try the recently revised Racing Score pen boundaries, which reserve pen E for sub 180 (a good thing), but make pen D I’d be in even wider at 350 limit (not thrilled about). Keeping up with CE pen Cs is a thankless mission even in Tiny Races when the pen E limit is 300, their aerobic ability is often higher than my 3-5mins ability!
So I’m caught between a rock and a hard place, but I’d marginally prefer CE, for the chance to keep with the lead group… Albeit my sprint ability is poor against the better CE pen Ds.
Wouldn’t most people who don’t want to race at the bottom of a category pick whichever one puts them in a more favorable position? If so that sounds like more of a bottom-of-category problem, which can’t be solved by shuffling the criteria that decide who ends up there. Someone will always be there as long as there are static categories.
I haven’t done a race yet this season, only pace partners and a few threshold workouts (eg. 4x10min @280W @77kgs). I’ve never raced in any category other than B before, (I always get my butt handed to me, so I’ve always been lower half of it). But with my current race score I can join the D pen - with my race score at 271. My current CE category shows “C” at the moment. I’m pretty sure if I joined a hard B race I would get a CE category bump to B.
So now I’m wondering if I should do what ZRS lets me do and just see how long it takes me to get promoted for science, or if I should ignore it and race up. Honestly I think ZRS should take efforts from last season into play because not everyone does a max effort every 90 days particularly at the start of a new season.
Well bearing in mind that ZRS will reset when it officially launches next month iirc, play and abuse the system as it stands, the more flaws pointed out prior to launch the better!
As much as I’m not keen on ZRS using power at all, if it has to be used, I agree we should use bests from the previous Oct-Apr season.
Yeah, I think in general this is correct. I mean the options won’t be identical at every time, so if the available race with CE is the length or course profile you want and the ZRS one is not, you might choose the CE one even if it puts you in a pen disadvantage, but all things being relatively equal people will tend to pick what they’ll do best in.
The fact that they had to make a big announcement thread about changing the ZRS score boundaries makes me feel they are really planning on keeping things pretty static for the big Zwift races, which is unfortunate when there are so few categories which means there’s always going to be a big range of ability between low and high end of that category.
If the norm is a few large categories with strict consistent boundaries we are going to continue to have the bottom of category problem, where some folks really are the nail in all their races for the entire season, and some float in the top beating up on the folks on the bottom without really getting promoted quickly enough.
They said exactly that a couple months ago
Finally did my first ZRS race and was as I hoped. More dynamic racing with more speculative attacks. Most people could still sit in the bunch until the big deciding climb (so the many Cs could keep up with the Bs no problem for the most part). Felt more like racing IRL.
However, I’d hope that the ZRS will become more volatile and change rapidly. But as noted in other treads, what is to stop someone trying to tank their ZRS in other races.
Agree with original poster, some races should be CE and some should be ZRS. This way you don’t have the same people winning (E.g. in CE those with an FTP just under the limit but have a good sprint) just due to the category system being used.