Once again, I have observed significant and persistent instances of unfair dynamics. Wahoo riders continue to face consistent disadvantages, seemingly being pushed aside at every opportunity.
During Tour de Zwift rides or when riding with a Robo Pacer, I experience a constant struggle—always being forced to the side and unable to reposition within the group. Any attempt to move up results in immediate displacement, followed by being pushed further back. It feels impossible to maintain a position within the group, as every effort to advance is met with immediate resistance.
I have tested with Wahoo and it happens always. I have tested Tacx and there i have way less trouble. So we are back and Zwift cheating all Wahoo riders.
It has literally nothing to do with what trainer you’re on or what equipment you have. Everyone gets pushed out equal yet unequal amounts.
With the newer PD5 system, it means that steering riders and non steering riders consume the same amount of physical space. Up until “now”, steering riders could continue to go through other riders like the days of PD3 and prior.
I can only imagine what you experienced was more related to an inconsistent test over anything else.
I don’t understand what people’s obsession is with wanting to maintain pack position is… there’s no reason for it. It’s not like IRL, stop treating it like it’s IRL.
In a really big blob of riders, sit at the front and pull if you wish, once you’re about two [rows of] people back, the draft benefit is equal all the way through to the rear until off. Where you sit from say that second row, all the way to the rear… is genuinely meaningless, and in racing situations could just mean wasted watts for lighter weight riders.
as a matter of fact it does matter which trainer you have. Go look at their update log roughly 1-2 years ago where it reads, corrected Zwifters being pushed aside using Wahoo.
Now the steering issues are just spread out to everyone with steering.
The steering behaviour on ADZ is very, very stupid with random swerving approaching turns for no good reason - sometimes taking the worst / steepest line through the corner rather than the wide, faster line.
I gave up complaining because that won’t be fixed.
It only affects the minority of people who ride ADZ with steering and they don’t matter.
On the flip side we don’t get the PD5 aggravation because nobody likes riding on hills = no traffic jams of riders.
I want to complain about how Zwift penalizes everyone who uses my exact trainer in my house. Everyone who rides on that trainer is nowhere near as fast in the game as they should be, we all notice it. Come on, Zwift–stop putting my specific trainer at such a disadvantage.
i have been doing Robopacers a lot in the last week and to be honest it feels ok.It isnt as sticky as people say here and you can overtake anyone just by putting little more effort like it would happen irl.I would like to see how this PD would work in a race.The only thing i would improve is the interpenetrations between avatars when riding on big groups because at the moment when noone is pushing at the front like robopacers it forms like a blob of riders riding through each other.So it ends up being 100 riders within 20 m.I wouldnt eliminate it like @Jon said in 1.80 post but increase it a little bit .
Do you mind letting us know if you are very light and which groups/rides you were with?
When I went with the Constance group on Saturday evening I was definitely getting stuck behind riders at the back.
A “little” more effort didn’t suffice, so it was 6.0w/kg accelerations to get past them, and then make sure to stay with the front (with the usual fast regular riders) where it is a lot easier. I’m just under 60kg so my experience is obviously different.
Depending on the average weight difference, I wouldn’t say it’s “a little more effort,” but if you take a stab for a second or two, then yes, you can brush by.
That’s nothing new, that’s how it’s been since PD4 with pass checks; which in general terms just takes some averages like power over time to ensure you should be able to pass someone and not immediately fall back behind them as soon as your face hits the wind.
Only time that’s genuinely a problem (IMO), is in a race setting when someone like myself gets stuck behind a heavy watt monster, and my avatar won’t steer out of the way despite knowing I could be going faster; specifically on gradients.
Now that all group rides are back on PD5, I still see a little splitting here and there. I haven’t been on London yet where it was the worst, but it seems the splits are happening a tiny bit less? I don’t have a ton of basis to go off of however.
Still getting the shoved out of the pack entirely, solo or with one or two others once in a while though (once in a while per ride that is; ie 2-3+ times per hour)
But London was the worst about it; which I have not been on this week since the system going public all over again.
I think some of the issue with London, and I could be wrong here, but it seems to me the lane width in London is particularly wide, wider than anywhere else in the game. So when someone gets spat out of the blob, it’s significantly more obvious (and dramatic), than some/most other roads on Zwift which only seem to be 3/4 or even less width (some gravel routes seem to be at times 1/4 width compared to London’s Mall.)
Hard to for me to say whether it is trainer specific because I don’t have access to every model being used. However, I do have two trainers (different manufacturers, one wahoo) and they both provide the same changed experience that many people are complaining about.
My view is that the level of “stickiness” can be debated (and how it impacts group rides vs races). However, I really don’t like the latest steering change (whether part of PD5 or otherwise). I have no problem with a higher protection of physical space so that I can’t steer across the lanes regardless of the pack. But it should work the same in reverse. Auto-steerers can push me out of the draft, even if I am holding my line using a steering button in the opposite direction. Why should one type of steerer have priority over another? If I can’t move against someone, they shouldn’t be able to move against me. Just make it a level playing field for both stickiness and steering, and we can discuss how impactful Zwift should set these two features in group rides and races (and indeed whether there should be a difference between the two).
Nobody has priority; the PD system is what’s pushing people around; not steering.
Steering only really has a use when you’re “solo.”
Both steering enabled or disabled riders equally get shoved outside of groups now at random occurrences; which is the main complaint with the PD tweaks; which, now months down the road, is still prevalent.
I disagree with that. Steering isn’t a magical fix-all, and it doesn’t allow you to push anyone else around. But it does allow you to slip through the cracks that the regular drafting algorithms don’t do for you. For example, if I was trying to stay at the front for an upcoming sprint, I’m behind a couple of lead riders, and another couple of riders start coming to the front off to the side of us at a faster pace, I can move sideways to get onto that train. And I can still steer sideways through a bunch, it just takes some time. And moving sideways through the bunch can help you leap a bunch of places in that bunch through a sharp corner.
Steering is great when you’re solo and taking some quick corners, but it’s still effective in a bunch in a number of ways.
This may have been true up until this past week; but now that majority has been pushed to the new PD system (maybe some races, for sure not ZRL… guess I’ll find out about WTRL TTT tonight…), that isn’t really a thing anymore.
I get what you’re saying though don’t get me wrong, although I don’t think it’s quite as functional as it were up until now with everything going over to the new system.
I just want to clear the air that folks with steering are NOT “pushing” people out of the group by steering away… that just simply isn’t what’s happening; that is 100% the PD system doing whatever it wants to do.
But don’t worry; I follow, just making more of a blanket statement.
For more clarity how it works in PD4 with steering; you could slip through other riders, and go from one side of the blob to the other fairly consistently and easily. You didn’t move anyone else out of the way, you just … slipped through.
Up through PD4 with steering, the only “physical” space anyone consumed was… we’ll say “the seatpost” of your bike; non-steering riders consume roughly the space of “your avatar as a whole.”
Now though with PD5, BOTH steering and non-steering users consume the same “your avatar as a whole” space… so slipping from one side of a blob to another, isn’t… really that easy anymore unless you hold the steering button down for entire minutes at a time. (or until the blob becomes less tight)
To be further specific however; some of this stuff is being referred to as “auto steering” and “pack dynamics”
personally I bundle it all together because… we (the consumer), don’t really have a say in what we get either way; it’s whatever ZHQ sets. So for me, all of this “stuff” is “pack dynamics,” although yes… there’s more to it.
That’s not my experience. I am prevented from steering into another rider (fair enough), but other riders can push me out of my line. I should be just as much of an obstacle to other riders as they are to me.
Again, not my experience. It is definitely helpful to manually adjust my position in a group ride (subject to available space…)
Okay well I’m just telling you; nobody has priority.
Steering or not; nobody can go “through” another rider, both people are blocked until someone scoots forwards or rewards and there’s enough space to get by left/right.
Nobody, I mean literally nobody, has the control to move/push you, or anyone else, out of the way.
That’s PD doing broken PD stuff.
And why we’re all here complaining about it