It’s worth bearing in mind that ZwiftPower categories are based on 95% of best 20 minute power.
Depending on a rider’s power profile, it’s quite possible they they can hold 4W/kg for a minute or two, while still only being able to sustain the lower 20 minute power. It’s easier to put down power up hill for most people, and a lighter rider probably benefits even more from this.
Also consider that watching W/Kg in the “Riders Nearby” isn’t the same as ZwiftPower category limits, as noted before. D is anything below 2.5W/kg for 20 minutes, but even at a steady state, 2.49W/kg looks like 2.6W/kg. When you consider surges and recovery, it’s clear that someone displaying 2.8 or even 3w/kg isn’t necessarily going to be outside the category limits over 20 minutes.
I did a race on Saturday, my best 20 minutes was 3.5W/kg (or 3.3W/kg at 95%), but my actual power varied between 2.7 and 3.9 mostly, with some surges to 7W/kg).
Well, fellow Zwift users, i’m going to explain my “sandbagging” in races. I’m a cat “A” racer if i would race. Like many others, i love to ride in group or with others 'of equal strength". I choose the time i want to get on the trainer whenever i can/want/need. Then i look if there’s a group ride that fits my needs or i choose a race in the category that i want to train for. I don’t race in winters as i do race IRL in summertime.
When i choose for a race, let’s say a category “D” race (because i want to do a recovery session ) i’ll never, never go for the win or another podium place because it’s not fair against others. So in no way, i’ve the feel that i’m “sandbagging” or even i’m distorting the race in any way. Many times i’m one of the latest but that doesn’t bother me. Still a recovery ride for me. Now yo’ll ask me “why the heck do you race then?”. Just read the first sentence again. Because there’s no group ride for my needs. “Go for a free ride” i hear you say. Then i’m mostly riding alone. I’m one of those who like to have a 'lil message chat for the social flavour. And another reason why i do it this way, is because Zwift allows me to do this. I’m not making abuse of the rules here but just making use of it.
So here you’ve an answer from a “sandbagger” who’s not a “sandbagger”. Why? Because it’s possible and that’s a way to enjoy of my Zwift sessions. But last and not least, i comprehend the most of you about your complaints about Zwift races but as long as this is not sorted by Zwift themselves, i’ll continue making use of this. If you like it or don’t.
Probably not. But maybe it could solve some. Or maybe it just introduces different problems.
Problems with the “W/kg” categories include:
they’re self selected
they’re arbitrary - there’s nothing special about 2.5W/kg, 3.2W/kg or 4.0W/kg
they don’t distribute riders appropriately: there are far more riders in some categories than others, just because of normal distributions of ability
they don’t take racecraft into account
Opinions may differ as to how important or not these things are, or even if they’re accurate. But the idea with the “points based” system would be that it’s not just about a rider’s power. Everyone (after some initial implementation period perhaps) would start in the lowest category. Getting results would lead to an accumulation of points, and once a rider has enough points they move to the next category up.
Maybe points are available for the first 10 places in a race; 15, 13, 11, 10, 8, 6, 4, 3, 2, 1. Once you get 50, say, points you’re upgraded to cat 3. And then you stay in Cat 3 until you can climb to cat 2. There’d be no decay back into the lowest category, and if you’re Cat 1 or 2, you wouldn’t be allowed to enter a Cat 3 or 4 race.
It’s a bit like real world racing, which seems to be accepted as fit for purpose and has nothing to do with power to weight ratios.
So how does it address the 4 points above?
they’re not self selected: everyone starts at the bottom and rises through the categories. Maybe there could be a self-selection for the first race, but a rider wouldn’t be allowed to choose a different lower category thereafter.
they’re less arbitrary: OK, perhaps the way points work is somewhat arbitrary, but moving up is a case of getting results, not just attaining a power. So you could be promoted to “A” (Cat 1) even if your W/kg is only 3.9 – or indeed stay in “B” (Cat 2) with a 4.3W/kg power if you can’t apply it to actually getting points.
they (might) distribute riders appropriately: I guess this remains to be seen, but it could mean there are more equal numbers in various categories, and those categories are more evenly matched. There’s no doubt some statistics and maths involved here, which I haven’t tried to work out.
they do take racecraft into account: if you have great power but can’t use it appropriately, you might stay in the lower category. On the other hand, if you’re a canny rider and can drat well and use your power where it counts, you’ll get promoted even if you don’t reach some arbitrary power number.
it might discourage anyone from sandbagging “for the wins”, because if they get points they get promoted. There’s no coming back every week for the race glory - sooner or later you’re forced to ride with better riders.
Admittedly, there are cons to this as well. What happens between “seasons” for example - and are there even seasons on Zwift? Is there decay? If everyone eventually gets points, does that mean everyone’s a Cat 1 or Elite rider?
But I think these are the sorts of things people are getting at when suggesting a points-based system.
Sometimes not all rules can be enforced all the time, that does not make them less valid rules.
Lets look at it this way - You would want cars to stop at traffic lights when you are on your bike even if there is not one enforcing the law. That is how we feel about race Cats even if Zwift don’t police it you should still ride in the correct Cat.
I have limited time to Zwift on a daily basis so I want my efforts to hurt but be enjoyable. So I tend to enter races, the enjoyment part of these events is becoming more and more rare due to numerous reasons:
Not all trainers are created equal and some make people look better than they are.
Height and weight dopers.
Sandbaggers (those that could easily be upgraded but spend more time watching watts to remain in a lower category)
The recovery rider ( going to call them this but sure people call them something else in private, those that drop categories for a win)
Maybe there are other ways of ruining others Zwifting experience and some can and will be difficult to police BUT in what I have seen so far, the biggest disruption to a race is The recovery rider. This also seems to be possibly the easiest one to rectify on the above list and done in-game by Zwift.
It would be a step in the right direction in aiming for a fair and enjoyable racing experience on Zwift, so much time, effort and money is being spent on the Pro and Pro/Am events to prove that cheating is not going on but us regular users have to combat this on a daily Zwifting basis.
Auto-assign.
I have a solution for Zwift regarding the height and weight doping, just in case someone from Zwift is reading this. Pay me a wage and travel expenses and I will travel the world with a list of Zwift racers addresses and check their height and weight………may need a few of us and would be a rolling contract to go round again to double check that some people have not eaten too much cake
It’s nice to show up with your facts but what you see is only those who’re on ZP. I’m classified as a “C” racer because i almost “never” enter “A” or “B” races because it’s not recovery nor aerobic for me anymore.
To justify your fact with silver in that B Kiss Race: we were with 4 riders in that category and i don’t remember how many not ZP riders. But ok, That’s maybe once a time just a finale fun. I’m guilty. You also can see that further i don’t mess in races. Take my word, i’m not the one who’s going to mess around.
With 311W FTP now and 68kg, this gives me 4.5W/kg IRL. I will never get that on the trainer as i won’t do any FTP test on Zwift. I’ll do that in labs and in a controlled environment. Not at home on my trainer.
Well my friends, sorry to be honest with you but again, as long as Zwift allows me to enter somewhere that suits me, i’ll do it. After all i also pay for the full utilisation of the program. But i understand you, don’t get me wrong. I’m also IN for a new categorization for racing as like it’s at the moment, it’s really a laugh.
The winner appears to have suffered the acceleration bug which allows the rider to ride at high speeds using normal power. They wouldn’t have been deliberately cheating, just a victim of a Zwift bug.
Your honest, kudos for that. You are right, It’s on zwift to auto-categorise. Still, it would not properly categorise you though, as all rides on zwift are…‘Sandbagging’
Hi BeckysDaddy, call it whatever you want. Sandbagger, recovery rider, disruption cyclist, etc… The worst are those who keep in silent and are racing for their best place on a regular basis in a wrong category. Does this mean that i won’t participate in a lower race categorie anymore? No. Maybe after this topic i’m more aware of not “disturbing” top places and drop back if needed. After all, results are not of my interest.
Maybe i’m beeing to honest and i had better shut up but i wanted to let you know that not every “sandbagger” has the intention to mess results in races. I love Zwift for it’s social interaction. Indoor training has been such a boring must for years and Zwift has changed this forever. Sorry that i make use of the possibilities as a customer (since the launch of bèta already)
A note to Zwift Staff: make priority of this categorisation for races. It’s a long known problem and it’s growing each day. I don’t have a solution for this but it’s neither for me to resolve it. What i can do, is giving my point of view. I hope that also contributes to a solution.
Here is another thing.
For the new automated Cat system or/and additional rating it would be very important to limit anyone without any FTP or rating enter as a first ride to the lowest category - the present E or D categories.
Why?
Since will still have the same issues at any of the lowest categories when there will be always people not belonging to this cat. Lets say new riders, or riders that came back after a summer season etc…
So how to solve it?
Simply allow entry to the appropriate categories only by having done FTP test.
If for any reason the rider not willing to do the FTP test (his own choice…) his first 3 races should be done only at the highest available Cat (he will be able to enter only to A cat) what will determine his Zwift FTP by the end of those 3 first races.
This way, it could solve the problem of the low cat entry point where without any system in place there will be always someone with much higher FTP prior of the first determination of Category or Rating.
I have been in events and come across real recovery riders, my problem is not with the genuine ones who stay out of the way who may be off the front but stop prior to the finish line to let the correct category riders finish before them. The problem is with those that drop categories for whatever reason and make an impact or more than usuaul are there for the win, great way to show a lack of respect to other Zwifters who are slower than them.
Maybe some do that, but it still begs the question; why do a recovery ride in a lower race category?
If they’re not racing, they could just join any group ride at the right pace, or free ride. And if they want to “race”, then can do that off the back in their correct category, rather than off the front in a lower category. Even if they’re off the front, that can have an impact on the race.
Ok, here i’ll explain again why someone like me would do that. First of all because there’s no group ride that fits my needs or free riding is like riding solo outdoors. That time i choose a race in the category i’m willing to ride. If it’s a “D” or a “C” or a “B”, it doesn’t bother me. It’s a training ride and i know i’ll have others around me at the same wattages so i can do the whole ride with others and not alone ( way at the back of an “A” race that should be my category ) In that case i’d better be riding solo. But i like to message and interact with ppl so time flies. Note: i’m not riding in front linies. Mostly i won’t get beyond the proposed w/kg of that race category. Remember, it’s still a training ride for me and not a race. Results are of no interest but i do enjoy the interaction with others. After all, i’ve done my training (or part of it) and didn’t mess any results. Maybe someone could draft behind me, maybe someone could profit of my “race” but i hope then that it helped that person when he passes me before the finish line. I hope he had a nice race. Still, it won’t be for a win or podium. I’m way behind the leader.
So actually i’m a cheater, sandbagger but i don’t feel bad of it 'cos results won’t change much. If Zwift changes the entry of races, then probably i won’t enter a race again. Like i said before, i’m not interested in results on my trainer as my real results only count IRL. All i know and hope, is that everyone gets a good time on his/her training indoor time.
With the current system, how have you decided that the guys in 7th & 8th are “Legitimate C” and not A or B cat also having a recovery ride but at the “correct” appropriate w/kg for the group?
And then a general question: with the shorter race format of Tour de Zwift, this further blurs the current categories I think. My FTP is ~3.1w/kg so puts me in C, and Zwiftpower agrees with this. But for a 20-25 minute race (e.g. TdZ) I can probably average 3.4w/kg, so should I enter cat C or B for these races? FWIW I’ve done the C races, and not been in danger of troubling the top of the leaderboard so far…
Edit to add, these shorter TdZ races are pushing me closer to the boundary on B/C on Zwiftpower too, because my “20min avg” is higher than in the longer races I’ve done until now. So probably by the end of it I’ll be bottom of the B’s instead
The lower bound or the upper bound? If it’s the lower end, then I can see that you should have a relatively small impact. But if you’re riding at the upper boundary of a lower category, you’d be likely to have a significant impact I think.
As for interaction, do you really get much? It might be a gentle recovery ride for you, but for legitimate racers in that category, they’re probably on their limits. I almost never say anything during a race because I’m working too hard.
Maybe the other people chatting to you are also people who shouldn’t be in the race.
I like to encourage ppl and many times there’s a good chat happening. One of the reasons i chose for this solution.
And no, not in the upper half. Mostly i’m in between of a pack. The more riders, the more i enjoy. It’s not about beeing in the front and pushing. It’s about beeing surrounded by ppl and encouraging them for their ride. To get the best out of them.
Haha…yes, maybe ppl chatting with me don’t belong neither there but hey, we all had a good time on our trainer. Most racing, others just riding. We all give “ride ons” !
Yes, there is a problem here. Since the system is not “forcing” the categories by the FTP. And with the actual state the real meaning of FTP limits for any category - is the limit that you could hold for any of the race distances. Example: someone’s FTP is 3.1w/kg - Top C category lvl. That someone enter a race of 100km and sure, that he will not be able to hold 3.1w/kg for almost 3 hours…, but the top riders in this race in cat C will probably finish at the average 3.1-3.2w/kg - whats makes them in reality with much higher FTP for 20 mins, or even 1 hour.
So, presently the categories as they are, is the average max w/kg for the whole race doesn’t matter the distance… And when entering the category in the actual state, you should hold this max at least for an hour if you would like to finish in the top C. Sure, you could compete in the 10-20 km races.
Thus, there is a need for a different system: 1. enforcement by FTP (this will also lower the average w/kg for the long races and will give more chances for the riders with the real 20 minutes FTP for specific group) 2. creation of special type of rating beside the FTP (number of wins in each cat and goes higher or something like this). 3. limitation to enter the lowest Cat from the beginning if there is no yet established FTP or rating etc…etc…etc…
3.4W/kg over 20 minutes is about 3.23 W/kg at 95%, so technically I’d say you should enter B. However, if you’re new to racing, it’s close enough that you could enter C and allow the system to upgrade you after a few races if necessary.
Bear in mind ZP categories are W/Kg and power. B is 3.2 W/kg and 200 W FTP. If you’re FTP power is below 200W, you’re legitimately a C rider even if you’re B in terms of power-to-weight.
“Simply allow entry to the appropriate categories only by having done FTP test.”
Zwift is a game. I remember another game I played called Gran Turismo. This was a driving game using both production and race vehicles from the real world.
You were not allowed to race (competitively) until you got your virtual driver’s license, period…no exceptions.
All Zwift riders who want to show up anywhere in the rankings for an official race should first have completed an FTP test. The program then auto-assigns you to the appropriate category. This is how you START fixing the problem we’re all discussing in so many threads in this forum.
…and don’t tell me that I have to go to some other website (ZP) to see “official” race results. Zwift should do this themselves if they want the E-Sports idea to be successful.
(sorry…had a rough morning on the NY Highline route. Man I dislike that thing…)
) i’ll never, never go for the win or another podium place because it’s not fair against others. So in no way, i’ve the feel that i’m “sandbagging” or even i’m distorting the race in any way. Many times i’m one of the latest but that doesn’t bother me. Still a recovery ride for me. Now yo’ll ask me “why the heck do you race then?”. Just read the first sentence again. Because there’s no group ride for my needs. “Go for a free ride” i hear you say. Then i’m mostly riding alone. I’m one of those who like to have a 'lil message chat for the social flavour. And another reason why i do it this way, is because Zwift allows me to do this. I’m not making abuse of the rules here but just making use of it.
We all give “ride ons” !