Heavier racers at a disadvantage in new cat/racing score system?

Racing
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Hi Zwifters! Heavier C racer here (former bodybuilder, 230lbs). Been on Zwift for years and race competitively in C…all until this new racing score system came out.

Now I often get dropped and struggle to keep the wheel. Talking to other heavier guys, they all seem to agree. Are we at some sort of a disadvantage due to our raw power being high?

I’d guess no, because the general pace and w/kg is also so much higher now. Example -

Race today in “C”, 7 of the 14 all had w/kg over 3.6 with 3 being over 4.0. In “D”, the winner was 3.3 w/kg and “E” was 2.5. I’m failing to see how this new system is making racing more fair, unless I’m missing something?

Maybe the heavier racers are the outliers but I haven’t seen the conventional/old w/kg numbers in any divisions in a long while. I just don’t see how people at 4.0+ belong in C in any way, shape or form.

Appreciate the insight! Again, maybe I’m missing something on this new system but it’s getting a bit frustrating.

And remember, it’s not like I can drop back to “D” either, I’m kind of stuck here.

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Just say No to doing 30 Sec Power. do 15 sec or go long and 2 min power, but dont do 30’s.

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I don’t follow, a race is a race?

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your lost little puppy, how ZRS work. Seeding for it works, i am to lazy to do the white paper on it but there are guys in here say the same thing but in more words. i do the foot note , just say yes bath salts your right. @Paul_Southworth @S_A_ccc both maybe sleeping. they help you.

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There’s been a lot of discussion on the forum about how ZRS is going. The last information shared by Zwift is that they are going to make a change to the seeding algorithm that might shift things a bit so we’ll just have to see how that goes.

The way things are now, riders who have a huge sprint but poor sustained power end up racing against people with no sprint and good sustained power. This creates a race environment that’s more “horses for courses” so those riders with poor sustained power should expect worse results on races with hills or determined breakaways. The only way to address that right now is to train for those conditions or expect worse results, and expect that that kind of outcome is possible so work harder at the chase because the dynamics have changed. Don’t go into it expecting an easy ride on the climbs or that breaks will be automatically brought back. Expect better results on flat routes.

Whether it’s fair or not depends on your perspective. In the previous regime sprinting well counted a lot for winning but not at all for getting upgraded. Now you get upgraded for it. In the previous regime sprinty riders could expect to get over the climbs typically found in Zwift races with the leaders and then blast them at the finish. Riders with better sustained power and a poor sprint got upgraded so you didn’t have to race them. They rarely won in categories below A. Now they might win.

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This makes some sense, thank you for the thorough explanation.

But riddle me this, how is someone with 4.0 wkg + considered a middle of the road “C” racer? Thats a pretty nasty avg power IRL

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Those categories no longer have any meaning. There’s no such thing as a “C” rider anymore in terms of the old category enforcement boundaries. If you’re racing a person with that kind of power, you can assume they either don’t sprint or can’t sprint. Those 4W/kg people with no sprint were probably endlessly losing in B category races under the old system. Some of them are fit old people or typical lightweights who should perform better on climby routes. Hopefully when they rejigger the seeding algorithm things will improve for you a little, but the new more dynamic racing is probably here to stay. It also matters whether you went from the top of a pen in terms of power to the bottom of a new one. There has always been a bottom-of-category experience which feels about the same.

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Understood.

Well, hoping for a shift. It’s frustrating, and like I said, the other heavier guys aren’t thrilled. And with me specifically, its not like I have crappy 20 min power, 2.7 wkg at 280 watts. I race well IRL too. But now I just feel stuck and I can’t go back in category where it would be a bit more fair for my situation.

Guess we’ll see how it pans out, hope to remain on Zwift and not look at Trainer Road or other options for my competitive itch.

Thanks again for the help.

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we have the same FTP, @dmoneystevens my Score is 405, there is big gap.

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Mine’s 395, so not sure what your point is?

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i know your pain.

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Oh, got it lol. Yea it’s a pain that’s for sure! Glad I’m not alone.

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Just for comparison, I have a terrible sprint, but I can do nearly 3.5W/kg 20 min and 4.3W/kg 5 min. My racing score is 386. Now I have not done my best efforts recently so they are not included in racing score, but that still matters because the look-back period is only 90 days and it’s not like I am weaker now. They should be including those numbers in the calculation. If I met you in a race I would absolutely try to get away on a climb and some other guys like me would probably join in the fun.

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And you’d end up ripping me apart on that climb lol

I guess for the old school Zwifters, we were very used to and accustomed to 2.5-3.2 meant C and that’s that. Now, that all changes and we have to reevaluate how things are moving forward.

It’s just hard to for me to grasp that a 3.5 w/kg racer such as yourself can be in my category or “ranked” lower than me but oh well.

Have to get used to it, or just stick to crit city…:joy:

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For further comparison my 20 minute and 5 minute w/kg are similar to yours, a bit lower but I’m heavier so our performance over those intervals likely to be similar. I also put in a good sprint when the opportunity presents itself.
My score is currently 655.
While it’s fair that my score is higher than yours, I’d argue that the difference is too much.

The top of category vs bottom of category experience is part of it and the ZHQ decision to choose and recommend fixed pen ranges is baffling, but the “neutral course” is more important.
People at the same place in a CE range, say top of cat C based of zMAP and zFTP, could be expect to be evenly matched in a race decided by sustained climbing. As the course gets flatter the heavier rider and the rider with the better sprint has more advantage.
In ZRS that neutral course seems to be pancake flat. People with the same score seem to have the same chance of winning on a flat course, and on anything with more hills the advantage goes to the person who hasn’t done a sprint as their score has come from better sustained power.
ZRS has tipped the scales instead of balancing them.

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I think the key is your last sentence - they tipped the scales rather than balancing them.

I never saw an issue before. When I start winning D too much, I got upgraded. Then I was middle of the pack C. Worked my way up to winning C over a few months. Every once in a while we’d have a sandbagger, but they often got thrown out for HR or something else.

Personally, I just see this change as not long term ideal.

The tiny race series as example has changed dramatically and the amount of racers are really less than half before. That series was super popular with 50+ in a category.

I know this is all very beta and will likely go through changes but for now, I see flaws, and it seems you do as well. I wasn’t a bottom of C category experience before so why am I now? I’m asking rhetorically, I understand the situation more now.

Someone who can’t sprint (or deliberately doesn’t) but has a high sustained power can be ranked similar to me who does have a high sprint. But now the race dynamic has changed so much I can’t stay with pack to even have a shot at the sprint. That’s a flaw. And IRL, wouldn’t really workout like this because they’d never be in my category in the first place.

Upgrade points. You win at a certain level of race you get upgraded. What’s wrong with that?

Zwift built a beautiful racing scene on the system before and I’m struggling to see why this dramatic shift was necessary.

And I agree, you at a 655 is flawed. I’d wager to say if our weights are similar, we’d race competitively against one another and we should be ranked relatively close.

If it’s not broken, don’t fix it. Millions (3 million I believe) of people were on Zwift, if they were all unhappy with how racing was categorized, they wouldn’t have continued their membership.

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The problem is that the old Cat system was broken for a lot of Cat C and Cat D riders. As Paul pointed out smaller riders who never won or came close to the podium were routinely upgraded for being over w/kg. You (assuming this is you) and I are both Cat C riders in the old system but the disparity between our numbers is pretty vast — I’d argue as vast as the ZRS ranges that you are finding frustrating now.

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Additionally, plenty of folks sandbagged — kept their 20 minute power low while deploying high wattage sprints to ensure they could win routinely and not be upgraded.

The other thing that people often overlook is that in order for there to be a top, there has to be a bottom. There’s always a bottom but those on the top often don’t really notice until they find themselves there. For what it’s worth, I was in the bottom of Cat C and am still on the bottom of my new ZRS cat, but I enjoyed racing then and now. I find my race within the race and set my own targets — I work towards my own improvement. Most of us are average to poor in most things we do ---- exceptionalism is, well, exceptional. So if the majority of folks on Zwift are only happy racing in the top 10%, there is always going to be unhappiness and frustration in racing.

Has Zwift gotten ZRS seeding exactly right? No. Was the old Category System based mainly on 20 min w/kg a panacea of fairness? No. Hopefully they will modify seeding to work out some kinks and more importantly allow race results to really determine where you land.

Edit: P.S. It’s worth noting that only a tiny minority of folks on Zwift race at all and racing is not core driver of Zwift membership/use.

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I think you have some great points, but also miss a few. As Robert said, that’s not really sandbagging. That’s racing.

Never in a real race IRL would someone be able to have a 20 min low wkg and then unleash a sprint. Nor would someone be paired in the same category with a dramatically different 20 min power ability level. They’d upgrade, fast. They might get away with it in the short term but they’d meet their match when upgrading.

Again, why couldn’t an upgrade point system happen? It’s worked in racing all over the world outside of this video game.

Your point of racing isn’t why people race. They race because they’re competitive. If you aren’t there to compete, do workouts. You can’t have a system where someone routinely won or top 3 and then overnight goes to the back of the pack. You now have people in the beginner “E” category averaging 2.5. That is not a beginner w/kg.

I’ve raced on Zwift since 2019. I never read about unfair advantages in the category system. Exceptions to every rule of course but the number of racers have gone down that’s for sure. You had series that had 75+ in a class back in 2021/2022. I haven’t seen that in a long time.

Maybe I’m on the other end of the equation and not the majority, that’s fine. But if there’s going to be racing, it needs to somewhat equalized fairly. Not this complicated algorithm where a group of people or their abilities are not accounted for.

Time will tell I guess.

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I said sandbagging because people were keeping w/kg low not to conserve energy in a race and be efficient but doing so in order not to exceed category limits and to avoid get upgraded to the next category. They were deliberately and consistently underperforming to remain miscategorized.

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Right. But do you honestly think that represented a large segment of racers on Zwift?

Most people who race are seeking an alternative to racing outside.

Now you have good sprinters who can’t even hold the pace nor are they allowed to move down in cat.

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