Zwift roadmap communication and Wahoo-RGT

Especially when we know RGT has been able to respond quite swiftly to requests and feedback.

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A valid point, but there are plenty of things that would not really offer that option.

Mind you, announcing something is coming and a competitor beating you to it would suggest a real problem with agility!

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Fixed it for you

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all Wahoo has to do is comb this forum to figure out everything it needs to do to pull users from Zwift, it’s not that much of a secret is it? I’m sure Wahoo has already completed it’s research too.

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shhhhhhhh don’t give the game away!

Zwift’s plan: furiously digging out from under a mountain of technical debt, while not really caring what their competitors are doing.

Why? Because (to paraphrase Winston Churchill)

"Democracy Zwift is the worst form of government – MMORPG cycling game except for all the others that have been tried.”

Having tried RGT, Kinomap, and Rouvy, they’re cold and lifeless compared to Zwift. The onscreen avatars fall into the “Uncanny Valley”, there are virtually no other “live” riders - it’s mostly bots - and any technical comparison of graphic quality between the two completely ignores that RGT is deeply un-fun compared to Zwift.

There’s a lot I’d like to see Zwift do (a Companion App UI cleanup would be nice) but I’m not leaving the platform. Zwift could completely ignore all communication as long as the system “just works” whenever I hop on my bike and I’ll keep using it. I suspect I’m in the silent majority on this one.

/end gonzo rant

(edits - typos and grammar)

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Are they a game or a training platform? I think the more they consider themselves a game, the more they lose the long term battle & market.

The market is cyclist / fitness based & gaming comes second after the physical endeavours, probably need to remember that at some point.

Its very hard to find anyone who speaks highly of anything EA does, but yet their games are still “some” of the biggest selling games in their market, feels like Zwift want to become EA at times.

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I’m going to respectfully disagree with you on that.

I think most people using Zwift do it to have fun while staying fit, emphasis on fun. That silent majority isn’t active here on the Zwift forum.

If you’re a hardcore athlete you might use Zwift but you could just as easily use a non-gamified Garmin or TrainerRoad tool or plan - and many people do run Zwift in parallel with that.

If Zwift buys TrainerRoad as rumored, they’ve bought a fairly wide moat against their competition in the training space. (one fee for both, no reason to look at Wahoo’s SYSTM etc)

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RGT is deeply un-fun compared to Zwift.

Freeriding in the open worlds is currently pretty boring, but it’s got potential. I did one of their E-Fondo events back in January, which uses courses from the real Gran Fondo National Series. There were about 60 riders (no bots!). Groups formed naturally, and we communicated to organize rotating pacelines (it doesn’t just happen - you have to put some effort into it) through the timed segments. Right now, that’s an experience you can’t really get on Zwift.

If RGT spruces up their graphics and grows their community to enable more experiences like that, it would be as fun as Zwift if not better.

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Id say emphasis is on fit over fun - Fun is the marketing term Zwift wants to sell to people.

If they buy Trainerrioad they move more towards becoming a training platform and become a more serious\mature in their offering.

The thing about the silent majority is, their silent you cant make assumptions on their behaviour or preference.

Custom bots are one more differentiator for RGT. There are different use cases for them, from making sure that races or the free ride worlds don’t feel completely deserted, to something a bit like the pace partners on Zwift. Personally I tend more towards the latter, I do “group rides” with me and ~20 bots on an undulating and technical crit course. The bots are constant power ones (the “real” ones are total wheelsuckers so not fun to draft) but across a fairly narrow power range so that the weakest ones can in principle draft the strongest ones, and then I’ll do my best to break the pack apart bit by bit. Of course after a while the slow ones rejoin the pack after getting lapped and the fun continues.

As for actual games, something like Hustle City is in a whole other level compared to both Zwift and RGT. Riding in traffic feels very realistic, indeed too realistic in that having to slow down and/or stop all the time in order not to crash tends to get too much in the way of getting a decent workout, just like IRL urban riding.

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They virtually admitted to doing this in the press release briefings. From DCR:

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I’ve been on Zwift for about 7.5 years now and have been trying me best to leave but just can’t (yet). Having tried all the others there’s just no stand out alternative. Sure some of them have features that I’ve been wanting Zwift to implement for years but on the flip side they don’t have a lot of what Zwift does. So instead I’ll just cancel my subscription for the 6 months of the year I don’t really need it…until Zwift comes up with an annual plan.

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This is certainly the state of play. Let’s revisit the situation at the end of the year…

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I think there’s a lot of wait and see what happens with RGT subscription numbers before there is any noticeable impact on Zwift. If Wahoo can invest in RGT dev and sort out how wahoo systm and RGT will integrate then maybe more events and more activity will occur and they’ll look like more of a competitor.

The complaints about RGT’s avatars are quite easily addressed once there;s enough money to hire better 3D artists as that’s a completely different sphere from 3D software development and one that startups without much available cash often have to make compromises on. One thing that RGT needs though is at least some way to link the different (non-magic) roads together, even if only in races and group rides so you can have longer rides. For example a classic race could glue Leuven, De Ronde and Paterberg together to make a classics race, While this still wouldn’t compete with free riding in Zwift it would at least add a bit of variety, and the linkage sections could just be short procedurally generated terrain.

I still will continue subscribing to both especially now that SYSTM is free at least until September, as I like the more real life racing model on RGT, although I wish they had a few longer weekend races as you find on Zwift.

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It was also mentioned to me that the only reason they don’t have a free-roam world / hub world is that they they had limited resources before and this is now something they can look in to. This would make a big difference I think. Especially if the engine then allows for speedy improvements to the textures / assets / rider look and feel etc.

Just popping in here quickly to let you know we’re actually getting a roadmap in the same style of Clubs updates out shortly, and your post is coincidentally well-timed. We’re in that final revisions stage now, so it won’t be long.

Keep in mind the roadmap I’m speaking about specifically is from my team only: the competition team. We’re focused on all competitive improvements (cat enforcement, etc.) as well as Pace Partners & AI features/tech.

What model crystal ball did you buy, James? I’d like to pick one up myself.

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Just out of interest, what other teams are there? And how does it all fit together?

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It’s great that this is coming from competition, thanks. Post was targeting a much broader and higher level though - more Zwift-level strategy.

This is also a great question

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