Why people sandbag? Sandbagging?

I agree on that one on the sport side of things, but you also have to consider that Zwift is ultimately a game which should be fun.
Take myself for example: I’m a Dad, mid 30s, just want to have fun on the bike, not really training for anything outside. Why should I do a workout?

If mass start, then yeah. And I would have absolutely no problem with that.

Guess the problem is that the W/kg System is really the wrong system for Zwift.
For example, in Zwift there are mostly flat races which have an acceptable attendance by other riders. Isn’t it unfair then to divide Cats by W/kg and not by pure power?
I’m 70kg, FTP 310. And in flat Races I would ride with all the other 85kg Dad’s around the world. But; since the W/kg system isn’t a good choice for flat races, I have to race against the A and A+ guys with over 5W/kg FTP.
On personal opinion, I just want to ride where I belong to. And honestly I’m not a Pro-Rider. I’m just a halfway decent fit Dad.

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To say it this way: If somebody sandbags to push his ego, than I totally agree that sandbagging is the worst.

It just happens that a good amount of sandbaggers on Zwift maybe have other reasons than an egopush to sandbag, because the system isn’t working correctly. And in that regards sandbagging would be okay in my opinion till we have a solution that works.

This is never the right thinking. Because there is no better solution no one should be breaking the rules.

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This is also not the right thinking. We want to progress forward, otherwise we wouldn’t have the LGBTQ season since there was also a “rule” that this wouldn’t be okay.

Peopele have to say what’s wrong and do the right things.

Rules are rules. I don’t get the other reference.

You can’t do the wrong thing to force change. We all agree the w/kg system is flawed but that is what we have and that is what we must follow.

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Let me assure you, I never sandbagged until now.
But I read a few days trough this forum and the call for another system is year’s old. And IF and WHEN it comes is questionable.
As you said youiself, the rules were made up by strangers who wanted to race and not by zwift.
So if people are categorizing themself into the right group to race against people of the same power/fitness/wkg (race dependend) this would be totally okay for me and I can fully understand that, since they want to have fun for their monthly fee.

IF somone is racing against weaker people on purpose, than that’s not okay.

This. And nearly everyone on this board understands that a better system needs to be in place. Until then I agree we all follow the same rules, no exceptions, no excuses. That’s fair to all involved.

You will not get much love from the racing crowd. You want to race down a Cat to practice drafting. Another just wants an easier workout today. Another is just here for social aspect since no group ride was available at the right time with the right w/kg Cat. Another says he was on an off day with lots of fatigue and knew he wasn’t at his full potential since he did a big 80 mile 5 hour outdoor ride yesterday…

What makes your excuse for sandbagging any different for anyone else? What make your reason any better? I see no difference, they are all excuses you tell yourself to justify sandbagging. Follow the rules. Everyone needs to do it. No excuses.

Zwift is a ton of fun. It is not fun losing a race to someone that is sandbagging. You are basically saying that “My fun is more important than all the other racers who are legitimately in the correct Cat below me”. Why do you only care about your fun and are so willing to take it away from the Zwift racing community? Seems selfish.

I am also a dad, early 40s. I do workouts. Actually I use TrainerRoad alongside Zwift. It’s really hard. It is super boring watching a yellow line follow a blue graph but I do it during the winter/spring every year so that I can be fast/have fun outdoors and be at the top of my Zwift racing game. I would ask why you feel it is ok for me to sacrifice indoors doing hard boring intervals while you don’t only to race down a Cat and rob me of my hard work? Seems selfish.

Agreed you are in a tough spot with that power and weight at the bottom of the A Cat. Again this is why we need a different system. Until then you cannot make your difficulties in the current Cat system a reason to sandbag. That system is not the problem of B racers you would be taking away from.

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Again: I myself didn’t sandbag on any race. So if you want’ to attack me personally, it has absolutely no effect.

All I’m saying is, I can understand why people sandbag and I would be okay with that.
If a 60kg rider with a 260W FTP want’s to ride a Downtown Dolphin Crit in Cat B, the he should do it, because I think the race would still be fair for the rest of the riders. And that’s what counts.

If people DO the right things, the game will be fun for everyone.

And yeah, I effectively CAN’T Race. Not now, and at least not for the next 3 months.
So what would you do? Quit Cyccling?

This led me to believe you personally were sandbagging. Either way, it wasnt ment for you personally. I just find that people who cheat at things, including Zwift races, have reasons in their mind that justify their behavior and not for one second do they think of the larger community that they are cheating. I find it to be selfish behavior since the reason in their mind is more important than everyone else.

I will also add that on the flip side I love it when people find good strategies and ways to win that are not conventional but fall within the rule set.

Absolutely no quitting. I would finish last if need be but I would not quit. I have on many occasions not been able to keep with the lead group. Like moving from D to C. Now I am the little fish again. I train hard and when I race I fall back to the next group and then try to win that group even if they are not all in my Cat. So in your case if there were only 8 A racers and 2 fell back and the second group was now say 2 As and 6 Bs then I try to beat the racers in that group, most importantlythe other A to take 7th in A.

So it’s basically the same … find a mass start event and ride with the people you belong to :wink:
Only that it’s not labelled sandbagging, but the people in the lower cats can feel better in this system?

So would this be “reverse sandbagging?”
Weaker people pushing their ego beating people in higher cats.

Well it’s gettin funny. So basically everyone is a sandbagger.

Let’s just screw this W/kg-System alltogether and make it more like in real life.
Let everybody start together without categorizing and let’s just have one winner.

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That’s one way of doing it but if/when Zwift racing gets changed I don’t think that method will be put in place. But until then register with your proper Cat.

In the end call it whatever you would like. We agree the system needs to be changed in some form. What we don’t agree upon is what to do in the meantime.

BTW with a new system if there is not a registration required Cat enforcement so that a racer is forced into his proper Cat then there will still be sandbagging. People will not willing ever join the right Cat en mass. We will have all these conversations again…

Yep, we don’t agree on this.

There is already mass start events some like it some don’t. Most real racers like the categories because it is fun to race in a competitive group.

So if you don’t like the categories do the mass start races. I don’t like mass start races and would like if people that enter the categorized races will follow the rules.

IRL races also have categories.

You are in a very fortunate position being young and have the opportunity to improve.

There are many guys in there 40’s and 50’s that train hard to get to A and to be competitive.

I started in D then C and finally moved to B next stop is A. I aim to get to A even if I am last.

But I won’t convince you you already made up your mind.

Don’t! You don’t ride with people 4-5.0W/kg in A! If you enter a hilly race, you race the 60kg guys with 6W/kg on 20mins. If you enter flat races, you race that 80kg guys with 5 W/kg and 400w Raw power on 20 mins. So if you’re not on one of those extremes, just don’t try. You will ride alone in A.

And that will motivate me to get stronger and faster. And when I do go outside I will kick butt. :+1::muscle:

And you don’t need to convince me, since I do not sandbag.

Just remembering our discussion in the other thread, where people always wanted a “closer to reality” simulation and then accept things in Zwift that are not even near to reality like this W/kg system.

I guess what people don’t understand is:
Zwift is making indoor riding it’s own sport. And I’m fully fine with this and even would ditch competitive outside cycling alltogsther since racing on Zwift makes more sense for us mere mortals. We don’t get closed routes, high budgets, best equipments and everything pro riders get.
So Zwift has the chance to de THE amateur competrtive cycling plattform.

I don’t care about kicking butt outside. I just want to go social riding on the weekends and race during the week on Zwift. That’s more logical.

But therefore Zwift has to evolve to a place, where you can race fair.

I mean the ZRL is good and this solves the problem for guys like me.

But the races inbetween outside of a league aren’t really races … they feel more like group rides.

I have exactly the same numbers as you (in my 30s, 71kg, 310w ftp) and I don’t understand your argument whatsoever. I thought when the other thread died we were done :joy:.

Everyone agrees the racing categorisation needs improvement to disincentivise sandbagging. Can we keep it to one thread?

Oh man, please … this discussion was about “reasons to sandbag” and it derailled again.

But to make you happy: :trophy: Here’s a golden Cup for you, you did a great job.