I thought that too, in the races I’ve done there I have finished with riders putting out more watts by staying tucked in as much as possible but since don’t know riders weights was not sure how much difference it made
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Yes it does happen in IRL and RGT matches it more closely than Zwift. Zwift far more often tends to filter results in a W/kg basis.
This is the end of that race, there were 47 entries.
It’s a huge question on RGT at the moment as there aren’t categories. This race is part of a series so people are gaining points each week which allows them to compete with people around them in the rankings. For one off races, motivation is more of an issue.
the w/kg filtering in Zwift is because of how categories is defined. It is a product of a category system that was once an easy way to group rides.
w/kg should not be looked at in flat races not IRL not on Zwift not anywhere.
Race grouping should be based on past racing performance. If RGT was clever they would have implemented it from day one.
I agree. It’s a terrible way to group races. My point is that it is at least a little less strict on RGT.
Currently there is no category system on RGT. It’s easy to say ‘implement it from day one’ but first you have to build a platform that works, then you can look at how to implement a category system. You also have to consider if a system is even needed. Is it just so that we can make some people feel better about themselves by giving them a medal? No matter what category system you use, the location of the boundaries is arbitrary and the results artificial.
Cycling is different than running for running it is fine to have mass start events because there is no race tactics.
For cycling to make it fun for every one we need to have the ability to group people together so they can have that racing feeling. The fun is not in the results the fun is in the competition and how to out smart your components. We all know winning C is not winning the race.
Having a ranking system give all of us something to work towards. A racer can have a goal to win a C race work hard and some day win a race or two then his goal will be to become a B racer then finish in the top 50% then top 10%. He may never be able to win A but the journey is there and race tactics.
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I wish this were true. Evidence points to the contrary. Eric Min has stated publicly that he will not give much weight to “the vocal minority” - the definition of which is open to interpretation.
The only thing that will possibly influence Zwift to implement changes that are not management favorites is loss of paying members. And that’s not going to happen until a viable competitor becomes available.
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The lack of categories works because you know what you’re getting into when you enter. Expect that there are going to be riders with whom you can compete, and riders who are going to get away. Find your group and race. No categories means no category cheats.
The more realistic physics on RGT also help. The races are much more tactical as a result of a realistic group draft. The overall pace is slower and a single rider stands no chance of staying away from a pack on the flat. But a small group of riders can attack and stay away. On RGT it’s not just “ride at the limit and try to sprint at the end”. Plan your race, watch for attacks, choose which to go with.
On RGT I’ve seen riders with an average of 2.8 w/kg beat riders averaging 4.8 w/kg.
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@Andreas_Traff I’m sorry that you seem to be missing my point entirely, leave you with the same type of question as you pose: - Does law enforcement prevent crime? Certainly not all of it, but it’s better to have it than not. The green cones on ZHQ Beta, the fact that ZP flags your W/KG, etc are all welcome.
My point isn’t even about cheating, will state for the last time, it’s just that the “racing is everything to me” is moot(ed) by the fact that you don’t control who you race up against, so thinking you’re the best because on Tuesday you won means nothing, much like being 12th on Friday doesn’t mean you suck as well. It’s all just a good bit of fun. Relax! (and let’s keep fighting cheating, of course) 
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The problem with that strategy is that by the time you realize you’re losing customers it may be too late. Based on what I’ve seen in this thread I’m going to check out races on RGT.
Key for me: the thrill of racing with a group of closely-matched riders - doesn’t matter if you are at the front, the middle or the rear - with a mass sprint at the end.
The biggest problem with the w/kg category system is that you end up with people who should be in the same race, not being so. Some B and C riders enter D and smash the field, challenged only by a few others similarly in the wrong category. Light riders get promoted to B way too quickly but are doing the same overall race times as those in C and D. So you end up with some races where you get dropped by everyone when there were others in the other categories, racing at the same time, who you would have had a great time trying to out-strategize and beat at the end. Instead you cross the line having ridden alone for 10 minutes. Maybe RGT won’t be better, but I wouldn’t be trying it if it weren’t for the illogical system in place in Zwift races.
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Yep. Your response confirms exactly as I said.
Live tracking of this morning’s climbing race… Yeah, w/kg is rubbish and doesn’t reflect anything!!! Genuine group C’s burned out trying to keep up with the pack.
Also, the whole notion of not treating it like a race… Why the hell not? Why should my immersive experience of Zwift not reflect those of people in cat A?
I pulled out of this race, I burned out completely trying to maintain their pace - found out after I had been pacing on a group A and a group B… But yeah, w/kg is rubbish.
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@Tim_White, you raise an important point there. It’s not just about things not being fair within a race or even within a category. It is also so incredibly unfair that cat A does get pretty fair racing whereas cat B-D don’t. Cat A only has the lower W/kg entry limit. They don’t suffer from the same W/kg nonsense as the rest of us, and you can easily show in data that this is so.
And it gets worse. Cat A gets all the attention from Zwift. They culture the brand name by various events such as virtual World Championships, virtual Tours, virtual this and virtual that. And it’s all centered around cat A or comparable events without W/kg rules (other than to detect doping/e-doping like in any outdoor event).
Through the PR around all those events they hope to attract the masses. And we come, we do get attracted, especially during these lockdown times. But the vast majority of us are not getting what we see on TV or other media. We get put into cat B-D, which are not the same at all. And Zwift can’t point fingers at the community leaders anymore and say it’s all their fault (and really, they never could, it was always their responsibility to manage and work with the community to some degree).
I think it’s safe to assume that these PR events are not profitable in themselves. It’s PR. It’s marketing strat. It’s part of a marketing budget. You expect to gain it back and then some through increased subscriptions. And if you think about it, this means that we, the cat B-D plebs, actually pay for the fair racing in cat A and comparable events without getting any of it ourselves. And we pay for getting more fools like us recruited into subscription to come join our crap races.
What a business proposition!
I might check out RGT too. I’d much rather lose in a fair race when I’m paying the entry fee myself. I expect to get paid if I’m supposed to lose in a rigged game, that’s usually how it works.
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The inaction by Zwift on this racing issue is disappointing. There is no equity; only frustration for the common subscriber. Just last month it was reported that Zwift raised $450 million in funding and it’s clear that they’re choosing to focus on hardware development rather than improving loyal subscribers’ in-game experiences.
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You should try the WTRL - Zwift Racing League (ZRL). Zwift Racing League - WTRL
99% of the riders is in the correct pen and all groups start separate. It is the most fun you can have on Zwift.
I don’t know why there haven’t been category enforcement years ago.
The racing community may be a “small” % of Zwift users but it is the racers that talk about Zwift and promote it to every one.
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@Gerrie_Delport
Thanks for the suggestion - I will keenly check that out.
I would add that I think racing would be much more popular amongst non-pro riders if there was even a little sense of fairness. Most of the people I have talked to about Zwift racing have said that they tried one or two races and then went back to group rides because being blown up each time by opponents pushing 300 W at 140 HR is the opposite of a fun time. One friend likened his Zwift racing experiences to trying to enjoy an outdoor race after realizing half the peloton are riding e-bikes.
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Might as well just get rid of racing. Cheats don’t use zwiftpower and are usually under private accounts or weights change massively on zwiftpower if they are registered.
However I have to say its very satisfying if you can beat one of these blumps in a race though.
Hi @Richard_Godfrey
You should try the WTRL - Zwift Racing League (ZRL) (link above)
Hmmmmmmmmm… What would happen if a bunch of us adjusted our heights, weights, and miscalibrated our trainers, then entered category D, C, even B and always took the win? Like, by a mile. Maybe even the first three positions…?
If Victory were unavailable, would the chronic sandbaggers lose interest? Might Zwift finally be prompted to actually take action?
Perhaps we add “ANTI-SANDBAGGER” to our names. Or create a team named “ANTI-SB”. That would at least let legitimate riders in the race know to ignore us.
Yes, it could be said that we would just be “part of the problem”. But the problem already exists (and has for YEARS) and is clearly not going away.
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Gerrie, ZRL isn’t much better. Partly because of the time of year, D & C are full of A & B riders without any races in the last 90 days, ZwiftPower crashes every week on Tuesday, and it seems like 1/3 of the teams are trying to find loopholes in the rules. I was really excited by ZRL, but it’s been a mess - it was announced long before any details were available, which was a huge pain for team organizers, and there seems a big disconnect between the Premier and the community races. They collapsed D divisions in 2 of 4 time zones - riders with FTP under 2 W/kg trying to race with the guys who are new B’s at 3.4 W/kg (legit increase during the league), and especially the EMEA zones seem to have a huge number of people who are gunning for solo wins in lower divisions when they would be competitive in higher… it’s all the same stuff for now. Not to mention that registration for ZRL is closed for season 1.
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