The problem with moving up based on points is that, hypothetically, everyone eventually ends up in Cat A.
I think watts/kg based off a genuine FTP (or zwift calculating off recent ride data) is a better solution. It’s incredibly frustrating busting a pooffoo valve trying to stay with a group of people who are riding at an FTP higher than the w/kg for that category - but would be particularly bad if you were placed in a category too high because you got put up based on points you earned… how long ago?
I’ve thought about this more, and I think the ideal would be a combination of w/kg categories plus a point system for results.
My example would be 2 riders -
Bob - 100kg FTP 240
Tom - 50kg FTP 130
Based of these numbers, Bob would have a avg w/kg of 2.4 - being a cat D rider. I believe while his FTP remains below the 2.5w/kg threshold.
Tom has been training and has recently improved his FTP from 120 to 130. Hence his avg w/kg have moved from 2.4 to 2.6 w/kg. He’s passed the Cat C threshold.
Here’s the problem though.
Tom cannot beat Bob in a sprint. He’s only a little fella, after all…
I think categories should be set based on FTP and w/kg avg - but riders should only be moved up once their FTP passed the threshold AND they produce a determined amount of podium results in the lower grade.
Otherwise, what’s the point of racing (and training to get better at it)?
Tom is entitled to stay in D grade until he can drop Bob like a sack of potatoes, in my opinion…
Tom cannot beat Bob in a sprint. He’s only a little fella, after all…
But Tom can (and will) beat Bob in a hilly race - no need to sprint…
How many riders have a real chance to win a race IRL?
I think if you move up due to good performance you should get moved down by not maintaining enough points for that cat. We obviously can’t all ride Cat A.
I’d personally like to see something more real. FTP and w/kg are nothing to do with cycle racing.
They are just figures which up to this point have served Zwift well but are really not cutting it now.
Results and points are more realistic and the better option now.
Saves Zwifters sitting in the top of a fake Cat, just managing to keep their w/kg below a certain fictional Cat upper limit, so they can continue collecting their imaginary trophies.
This is not how racing categories work in real life.
In rel life, once you reach cat 2 you have to maintain a certain number of points each season to keep your cat 2 license, otherwise you drop back down to a cat3.
Again, the real life category system has worked perfectly well for decades and I really don’t see why Zwift are ignoring it and/or trying to over-complicate their systems and online racing altogether.
I often wonder whether anyone who works for Zwift/RGT actually are cyclists and understand cycling culture or are just a bunch of business school graduates who saw a gap in the market
Most points-based systems award points (or reduce them for lower-is-better systems) on the basis of your results and the ranking/points of the rest of the field. This way, unless you consistently beat everyone else whatever their capabilities are, not everyone will end up in Cat A. These systems exist in a multitude of sports - think FIS points for ski racing and ATP rankings for tennis, for example. You end up with relatively homogenous categories, with those who are improving moving up the ranks, those who are degrading moving down. With a point-based system, you can even automatically balance the entrants into dynamic cats at each event - take all entrants, drop them into 4 groups of the same size, selecting the category borders accordingly.
This could have helped with the huge participation in events this weekend, instead of just having 4 start groups with 1000 riders in each there could have been 40 start groups with 100 riders of equal strength. Starting them in 10 second intervals, would only take about 7 minutes to start all the groups.
Well, the latest update (2nd guest world, etc.,) has finally been approved by Apple in the last couple hours. I finally see it on my iPhone. Guessing at lunch, I will see it on my Apple TV as well.
I’m still not convinced by this “ghosting” approach. If the people who are always entering the wrong category don’t notice the difference, then how will they know that they are in the wrong category? They’ll still continue to enter D races despite being A/B quality and will still “win” the race in their eyes, so have no reason to change their behaviour.
Also, when does the ghosting take place - as soon as the race starts based on your FTP or previous results? Or only when you go over the category limit for that race?
If the latter, then what if someone is able to sprint out of the pens because they have great 1 min power, but has no stamina / 20 mins power is terrible - they’ll be ghosted at the start, but then will they be un-ghosted later on in the race as they drop back below?
I’d rather people just got told “you’re too good for this category” when they tried to sign up for a race in the wrong group - it’s a lot easier and less fuss.
Mike - I did listen to Eric’s interview at the time and replaying it now doesn’t make it any clearer I’m afraid. He admitted he couldn’t say exactly what would cause someone to be “ghosted” - it could be 5 min power, 20 min power, it could be something pre-race, who knows.
Also while he did say that the riders who were ghosted would be DQ’d at the end of the race, it was less clear how that was going to be communicated to them. Would they be missing from the race results displayed during the game as you cross the line (and made clear exactly why)? Or would it be that you’d still show up in the result there and then and then only get DQ’d later, like we currently have with ZwiftPower? I hope it’s not the second case, as that wouldn’t solve anything.
We can only speculate, if Eric didn’t make it clear or even have the answers figured out then we won’t know until it happens… hopefully you are right and they solve some of the issues.
Zwift must do something.
Yorkshire Grand Prix Race today, 5:30pm CEST, C category @ Zwiftpower … 64 racers listed, 72 not listed.
You can imagine, how the race was.
Winner D … 4,4 W/kg; 2nd place 3,8.
