Pack Dynamics 3.0 Update [October 2021]

That certainly suggests that something’s not right. Or is it a quirk of the KICKR Bike in Zwift? Whatever the case, your observations of those two 30-minute blocks look like the opposite of what would be expected, right?

When I was in the group ride in London last night (no steering devices allowed), avatars were all drafting naturally and no one was being excluded from the draft if they were anywhere close to other riders. I haven’t tried riding with steering with Pace Partners myself since PD 3.0 were activated in Watopia, but might try to reproduce your experience tonight after another group ride.

I think it’s a quirk of the kickr bike. If the visual is fixed I think this most likely will work roughly same as before. And in events when steering is disabled it will probably work as expected (will hopefully test that tomorrow).

Will be interesting to see if you can reproduce the issues.

rode today with Carly bot and Bowie bot. overall, the PD3.0 feels much better. i’m not constantly having to overcome riders slowing down off the back of the pack or putting out slightly less power than me, and i can react more quickly to a change in my position in the pack. riding uphill in particular requires less power now in a group, and riding downhill with bowie doesn’t require me to redline to stay with him.

i think one “unintended consequence” here is that a bunch of C riders are going to realize they are now B riders (such as myself). i was much more able to keep up with Bowie today, even going up the volcano. the power was still high, but it was more even – which means that i didn’t have to spike my power periodically to keep up. and not spiking my power means i was able to keep my HR more under control. particularly on flat sections, i was able to sit up for a second and lower my HR without getting pulled out the back of the pack.

couple odd things:

  • my avatar did seem to hug far to the right of the road – even riding in the grass. there was one point where my avatar was far over to the right and seemed to want to get back on the road, but there were other riders blocking. the result was i was sort of drifting on a diagnol until it sorted out.
  • i rode with carly first, then switched to bowie. when i did this, it started me very far from the bot, and then there was a HUGE pedal assist that blasted me around watopia until i caught up with him. not sure if this had anything to do with PD3.0, but i’ve never seen that before.

Rode the Pack Sub 2.0 ride on London’s Pretzel (Got DQ’d but I knew that was gonna happen with those guys) so I could try out PD3.0 in different packs. There are usually three or four packs of 10-20 miscreants each who ride off the front so I could switch bikes between each pack and see how it responds to the changes. I can say for me, PD3.0 is the single biggest improvement, on the order of “End ride and start another without logging off” change, I’ve experienced on Zwift.

The lack of lateral movement, how the avatar has some idea of what a correct line is through a corner, and most of all, the reduction in sticky draft, all make this a HUGE improvement. It so much more like Real Life that it seems like an entirely different game. If anything, I felt like I was slower because of how steady everyone was within the pack.

When riders in front went over a hill, you didn’t have to hit the 15 second power to hang, we all just stick together as a bunch and power down.

I followed the Pack ride with a freeride on Makuri Farmland Loop with steering. Not really enough Zwifters to get an idea of how steering works in a group but it was still better than anything we’ve had before.

Kudos to ZHQ for the upgrade. This is absolutely the best present ever! Thank you.



My SZR Endurance ride in London was on the whole okay today, unless you were part of my sweep team (I’m waiting for a full report back, but it sounded challenging). I had a nice blob around me too.

Apologies for not reading the previous posts my issues may have been mentioned already.

The fun really began on the after party, basically 9 of us all had similar issues and the group was blown apart by the end:
unable to make U turns
indicated directions were not the ones we ended up going at a junction
speed limiter of 24kph kicked in for at least 3 of us on Fox or Box declines then stayed in place to the end of the ride.

Needed to ride to 162km today, 10km to go I was FORCED up Box Hill for a second time, not exactly what I needed :rofl:

All this is available on my livestream if needed.

Paul, in case you missed it: Can't U-Turn [October 2021] [1.18.0]

Heard it was an Alpe issue, but thanks.

Hi Paul,
Discussion of the u-turn bug was focussed on the AdZ because people were being stopped from vEvesting by the issue and generally make their attempts on the Alpe.

Unfortunately, it looks like we won’t see a bug fix for that being published until around 10 Nov. Until then, avoid attempting any u-turns after completing any route in the list of badge-winning routes (even if you have the badge already).

Luckily, the u-turn bug seems to be unrelated to the Pack Dynamics 3.0.

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18 posts were split to a new topic: Pack Dynamics 3.0 Update [November 2021]

@Stian_Lersveen can confirm I see the same behavior with my Kickr Bike tonight during an After Party ride in Watopia. When you get pushed to the edge of the road the avatar seems to want to go back in the road but other rides in the way and you end up at an angle for a bit before it sorts itself out.

Also seems that with steering (even if not using) you get set to the outside of the group more than others without steering.

@Roule_Thoune @Stian_Lersveen @D_Watson We might want to pair in ANT+ with which steering is completely disabled, IE: does not exist, and see if that makes a difference from where there is a possibility of steering with BLE. Really, I’m fairly lit and grasping at straws but that’s all I got… Dang that was good Scotch this evening…

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I have the same with my Kickr Bike - even with steering disabled at the pairing screen, the steering wheel by my name is still there in game.

The only way I have found around this is to pair using ANT+, then steering is not possible.

But this has been the case for a while, so not related to PD 3.0 - maybe make a new thread about this quirk, so Zwift are aware?

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Did the ZHR masters this morning, same route as last weekend. Same time for less effort but that’s possibly due to the slightly larger group size. Much smoother ride, very easy to position the avatar and much less sticky draft. There was still the odd occasion where riders swung across the lane but it seemed less common. Supertuck on descents seemed more stable and reliable, I never once thought I was slipping out of the draft which has happened in the old version. Could be just coincidence or confirmation bias.

I think TTTers will really like it though it might take a week or two to get used to. Please roll out to all worlds ASAP, I don’t want the old version!


That’s pretty much the same feedback I got from the ZHR Weekend Group Ride - smoother, more stable, easier to stay in the pack, not getting pushed sideways out of the draft, same speed for less effort, etc.

I’m with you - please roll it out to all worlds! :+1:

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@Mark_Crane_TOG_G_65y yea I’ve been putting that off cause IIRC you can’t use the top right hood button to activate power ups if connected via ANT+. It only works in BLE

There are several of these inexplicable inconsistencies, such as the Wattbike gear indicator only working over Bluetooth but controllable only working over ANT+.

?? Atom user here…
What do you mean?

This is on Windows, which IIRC you don’t use.

Windows Bluetooth is the version I don’t use… Windows Ant+ I reluctantly still use every now and then. You can’t move from erg to free ride to erg whilst in a workout on Apple TV so is needed.

Ant+ on windows is pretty good, I just suffer massively from drop outs which im not convinced is all ‘noise’ from other devices.

We’re off topic, point was just that if a device or hardware feature is supported, it should be supported over every protocol and platform.