Continued Pack Dynamics feedback?

I’m wondering if there will be another PD thread at somepoint, or if 4.1.1 was the last iteration we’ll see? It seems like speeds have ramped again with the latest update. Also seeing groups pull back riders with lower watts than a leading individual.

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Same, middle of this week seeing the old behaviour again. Most are ahead of the pacer, and very inconsistent speeds. I was off the front, more than 50 meters- not even showing as behind me. Suddenly, the pacer and group are within 30 meters. Like the pacer was slow, making up to be at the stated average


the people have spoken apparently. as far as i can tell the current dynamics are pd4 with autobrake (although hard to trigger it) and the shorter/stronger draft. hopefully descending solo is still possible as that was the only thing i personally disliked about pd4

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Groups should have some advantage, there are more people to balance the workload. They should be quicker than a lone leading individual.

It makes for predictable racing, but that’s the way it is IRL.

Can those people move up to a faster pacer? Then they will have to work harder.

I think it’s a continuation of changes though to update the “stickiness”/draft until they are happy with it….

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Not… entirely.
Yes, when folks are working together and indeed pushing a group pace, absolutely.

But the advantage of an entire group behind someone at the exact same pace as someone alone, at cycling speeds, is next to nothing.

This was the huge issue with PD3, where the washing machine effect was so extreme, a giant blob of D riders at 2w/kg could catch a solo A rider pushing upwards of 4w/kg. This is unrealistic.

A solo rider should absolutely be able to keep away from a pack UNLESS said pack’s front riders are putting out more power; and the group is working together to be able to do so.

Personally, I think I need more time with the latest fix.
I’m still under the impression that it’s too easy to get in front of a blob though.

So far I only really have one actual complaint with the current PD, which is riders phasing through each other quite extremely, even in small packs when it shouldn’t happen at all.

I’m not sure where this bug came from, but I feel like during PD4 and 4.1, avatars did a good job of not going “into” each other.
Right now it seems avatars don’t exist, and it’s just the bikes themselves that won’t clip through each other.

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Eh, decade plus of IRL racing here and I’ve never seen a break come back with a chasing group doing both less raw watts and less w/kg. But that is what is happening now (I should say again, as this was a common occurrence in early versions of PD). @Andrew_Nuse I get the sense people have phoned in the feedback given how the other thread was wrapped up with no mention of ongoing iteration. It’s a shame as the 4.1 version was starting to generate some interesting action in both rides and races.


i think that to avoid riders moving thought each other there would have to be a proper collision mechanism without sticky draft which its imposible at the moment with the few things they can change so they would have to rewrite the physics (which is what i think they should do )and how riders interact with each other so they are very limited with the changes they can make like @DavidP have said few times

The pack chasing gets to rest for a bit as they swap off the front. While the individual has no chance, he/she must smash the watts the whole time.

Do you “eh” about that too?

The group working together inevitably goes faster and they don’t have to collectively destroy themselves as much as the lone rider.

The feedback has been taken obviously and it is set now. As you said, the other topic is closed. You’ll get used to the new way, as everyone else had to get used to changes they didn’t always like or agree with.

Maybe I just noticed it a lot less with the PD4.1 but it was happening in 4.0?

I’m unsure, I just feel like visually the going through other riders got way worse. It’s obviously not the end of the world, just stating that I “feel” like it’s happening more than I remember.

@Chris_D9 don’t mistake what Anders is saying; because you yourself are agreeing, which is the statement that riders in a pack get more rest, and can spread effort across multiple people; but the end of that statement is the key note.

The fact remains; that effort from the group MUST exist, or else they will NOT catch a solo rider assuming efforts remain equal (or at least minimally higher on the solo riders’ side, but not anything significant.)

A solo rider should be able to achieve the exact same speed as a group given equal effort [to those at the front]. (This is not discounting folks within the group aren’t having to work as hard, we all know this to be true. But they are doing just that, resting, not pushing.)

The reason this was an issue in older PD’s is because folks would get slingshot to/out the front, and that would be constantly repeating; ala the classic “PD Churn.”
The churn is what makes pack speeds unrealistic; which is what PD4.1 basically brought to an end.

Regardless of the subject, I still feel like I need more time.
I feel like I float through the pack a smidge too easily, and arrive at the front too easy, but I’m not sure if this is bias after getting used to 4.1 or not.


Expecting changes to the draft to solve for the problem of riders flying through each other and creating a magic flying washing machine seems like driving a nail with a screwdriver. There’s only so much that this tool can do.


@Andrew_Nuse Thanks for chiming in, and I agree. I find myself needing to back off earlier near the front. I’m interested to see how this plays out during WTRL.

@Chris_D9 You are still disregarding the very important bit about both raw watts and w/kg. IRL, say a 75kg rider goes off at 300w (4 w/kg), and there is a chasing group in which any one individual is only doing a maximum of 250w with a range between 3.1 - 3.5 w/kg. There is zero chance the chasing group will catch the leading rider. This is how things were working up until 4.1.1. Now because speeds have come back up, groups with no initiative or organization are able to track down riders doing far higher raw watts and w/kg. That isn’t how it works IRL, or there would never be solo breaks that work. Unfortunately, the racing on Zwift suffers because of this mechanic because there is no incentive to create a break.

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I never disregarded that because I never said anything about that.

I only made the point that a chasing pack gets to have some rest because the guy on the front of the chasing pack is smashing the watts, the folk behind get to rest for a short period of time while they are following. When they get to the front of the group, they push the pace again.

The breakaway rider gets none of that unless he might have someone else with him to share the work.

That’s all I was saying right from the start, nothing more.

Paul is right, adjusting draft isn’t the solution for this.

If everyone had steering, brakes and collisions were possible this would not happen. Imagine how fun collisions would be. :wink: That would add an interesting component to racing. :wink:

We’d finally require those neutral starts everyone wants, else everyone would topple over in the pens :joy:

fun for me, since i am an ■■■■ hole, maybe

I agree, first race last night with PD 4.1.1 (DRS) and was disappointed to see that it was easy to fly to the front and beyond in the pack again.

@DavidP any chance we can get somewhere between 4.1 and 4.1.1? with 4.1.1 a lot of the good things have been lost?

Breakaways riders are now reeled back with no coordinated chase.

A small group coming down the volcano were caught but a slightly larger group not really chasing hard.

With 4.1 I managed a solo win in a race and also small 2 man breakaways worked if committed and required the group behind to work together to chase and catch.

Last nights race (3 little sisters) split into groups on every climb yet came back together for a mass sprint finish (40 riders) this wouldn’t have happened with 4.1. Was back to what’s the point in attacking if it’ll all come back together anyway - negative racing.


I would say we are already at that point with the adjustments made 1 week ago in the settings, at least within the realm of possibilities.

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i haven’t noticed any change with that adjustment…slingshot is still exaggerated in big groups and small groups are penalized now without it.


thanks for continuing to work on pack dynamics and listening to all the feedback!


I think that like i said before they are at the edge of what they can ajust at the moment so there is no middle point posibility and some people will always disagree with the changes because there isnt the posibility to ajust complex things like stickyness of the draft ,collision etc with the current engine.