just change it back to 4.1 then 
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I also have to agree with @j4m1eb and @DejanPresen with the feeling that PD 4.1.1 reduces most (not all) of the good things we saw/felt in PD4.1.
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The increased slingshot of riders onto the front of the pack is back, resulting in higher pack speeds.
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Packs are able to close gaps more easily (with less effort than breakaway)
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Downhill pack speeds also feel increased (I suspect from the increased dishwasher/slingshot on the front).
From the bug fix, I was certainly hoping for more of a middle ground, between 4.1 and 4.1.1, to be achieved. I feel this would suit both community/group rides and the racing community.
I appreciate we can’t keep continuing to tweak indefinitely, we’ll need to ‘get used to it’ at some point, I am just adding my voice in the hope that there is either:
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Some final tweaks that can be made before we land on the final dynamics?
(preferred option) -
We have a ‘Racing Dynamic’ (4.1) and a Community/Free Ride Dynamic (4.1.1) (not ideal)
Disclaimer
I try to give it some time - to adapt and feel the changes before commenting - but I feel I have now done enough group rides and races to confirm my initial feeling…
While, I hear mostly positive feedback from group rides - as it is easier now to work though the pack… As mentioned, we had a great, really exciting racing dynamic with 4.1 which has been mostly un-done.
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Agreed.
Maybe there really does need to be 2 dynamics.
Racers like 4.1 as efforts are rewarded and it leads to dynamic racing.
Social riders hate it as they want as much speed/distance for the least amount of effort (bit facetious I know).
But Zwift already had 2 different versions of supertuck between race and social.
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Let’s clarify a few things about the pack having to “put out more power” thinking here.
Take 20 identical riders (80kg and same height) riding all at 320 watts. They WILL and SHOULD catch another identical rider riding at 320 watts. There will always be churn in a group of 20 riders and they don’t need to increase power to catch the solo rider.
This is why the breakaways riders NEED to put more power than the pack to stay away because the pack always have an aerodynamic advantage, not the other way around.
We keep telling pack needs to put more power to catch up. That’s only the case if the breakaway is actually riding at a much higher watts. In that case, yes, the pack needs to increase their power relative what they have been doing, not relative to the breakaway.
EDIT: This recent study found that even the leading rider in a large peloton experiences drag reductions relative to a solo rider: Aerodynamic drag in cycling pelotons: New insights by CFD simulation and wind tunnel testing - ScienceDirect We know from Eric’s testing that the leading rider in Zwift experiences the same drag as a solo rider, which clearly doesn’t align with real world studies.
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I think it’s more than just the speed in this case. For pace partner rides in particular people are trying to go at a certain power on average, and attempting to stick with a specific person within the group. But, if you fall too far back you get the “too far back” warning, and everyone in that situation starts pushing to move up the pack for a better position predictably to avoid leaving the drops game or getting dropped.
Then people all around at the back start edging up their watts, then everyone around ends up going over the wattage they want to move closer to the pacer due to being stuck behind other riders who are also putting in more power than they want, but also need to move up to avoid dropping out of the drops game.
So, personally what I would want in a pace partner situation (where you’re trying to stick with a certain person in the pack - who might be in the middle of the pack), vs. a race situation are in fact different. This might be similar in a group ride where a group leader asks everyone to “blob up” around them. Everyone in the back increases their power, and it’s hard for everyone to blob up at the same time.
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There is nothing like a consensus about this. I was OK with 4.1 in races but many are not because it interferes with a popular racing style that favors some riders. PD4.1 encourages a slightly different set of winners and that’s bound to create some unhappiness.
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I think PD4.1.1 struck a good balance between pack speed and ease of drafting. I don’t have to ride in a pack with constant threat of getting dropped if I sneezed, yet I can see attacks materialize if they put in the work and the peloton did not. Less wasted watts, more dynamic races. But then, I am a sprinter, so I like less wasted watts. Breakaway riders surely prefer PD4.1 with more advantage for them. So, I advise you take the feedback you receive here with a grain of salt because everybody will favor the option that gives them an edge, as is the nature of hedonistic individuals.
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I do know that hence why I said I was being a bit factitious.
Also why I said actually race and social PD should maybe be different and they require slightly different behaviour.
I see what you’re saying and yes depending on the type of rider you are 4.1 or 4.1.1 might suit better.
In all seriousness though don’t you find just sitting in the draft for 30 mins then a sprint finish boring? I’d rather attack and be dropped than Z2 and sprint for no training benefit from the ride?
Depends on a lot of factors: course profile, competition, and goals. If you treat a race as a training ride, sure, go ahead and do your 2min Vo2 max intervals while you are at it. If your goal is to win, then you need to preserve energy and maximize bang for the buck. My wkg is mediocre at best, so there is no point in me attacking a group of stronger riders if I am trying to win.
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Agree on that, but I think an argument can be made that 4.1 increased the possibility of more potential winners in any given race. That should be a compelling argument when considering how to adjust things.
@SeattleSauve that is a fair concern, but I’d say those folks have plenty of pace partners to choose from so that shouldn’t dictate pack dynamics to the same extent.
how long will PD4.1.1 last for, PD4.1 last for what 4 weeks ?
Bets ?
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2-3 years
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I prefer churn to is the quicksand feeling of some of the previous changes. I mostly ride with pace partners tho. I think it’s good now and hope they stop here
There will be always people that prefer this version (mainly people that do group rides or pp ) because in reality current PD are great for group rides but not for racing that’s why the majority of people that prefer 4.1 are racers (even me that i am low cat rider and current PD benefit me to have big blob without breakaways or attacks ) .The only solution I see here is separate racing from social riding or training .Let the current PD for group rides ,pace partners etc and for racing go back to 4.1 maybe add some tweaks to it so it isn’t as attritional and counteracting the wasted watts of the stickyness by increasing the draft scaling so that there is more draft at the back of the groups. Also to benefits the skills like the drafting, knowing when to push or relax and when to attack
In a long term the only solution to this is to separate the racing part of the platform from the general one
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Not everyone has won the w/kg category limits lottery. Some of us have to compete against people who can do 20-30% more power so maximising the draft is the only way we can finish with the leaders. So while you’re there doing your Z2 we’re here doing Z4 just trying to hang on and get as much rest as possible before the next attack/hill.
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That’s why good ranking system is important so that skillful and not that strong riders can hang with racers that maybe doesn’t have the drafting and tactics skill but have got little more power.Changing the PD will not catch the sandbaggers but good ranking system will
I agree but since changing likely winners is a zero-sum game, it means a bunch of people who previously had a good shot at the podium suddenly did not. They’re not all feeling magnanimous about that. Personally I felt the winning strategy of big powerful riders doing zone 2 and then sprint FTW was not very interesting, and it profoundly affects my route and distance selection process, avoiding anything shorter and flatter.
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Trust me neither have I. I’m a mid B and have zero chances in a CE B race. I mainly race series done by ZR.app cats.
BUT, with PD 4.1 it was possible even with mediocre power to attack and other riders didn’t chase or just thought it would naturally come back and end up potentially staying away, certainly if it was 2 or 3 committed riders and the pack didn’t chase.
It doesn’t need to be a separate platform. When PD4 was being tested there were certain races that it was turned on for and then assigned a tag.
Zwift can turn draft in and off for an iTT.
When you ask Zwift to set up an event organisers could ask for PD4 to be enabled when it was being tested.
No need for a separate platform, just a variable like PU choice or draft that can be enable on an event by event level. Or just if it’s a race. PD a and if it’s a group ride PD b