Category enforcement problem

I think you’re now locked in for 90 days - (I think) CE works on best wkg and to improve your zMAP would now just take you further into B category.

Whereas had you not exceeded that 4.1wkg number you would be fine & back in C.

Three months of yumi and coco it is then.

So now you can’t race?:thinking:

Since you have B category power, you’re going to end up in B again eventually unless you work hard at sandbagging in C events.

To enjoy racing now you might look for events that don’t use the traditional category boundaries such as TFC Mad Mondays, or VirtuSlo split category races

https://teamtfc.com/mad-monday/

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Also I seem to recall one of HERDs Saturday races uses CP.

I did a B race today. 2 laps of Loch Loop. Finished 55 of 78. Dropped by lead group at the end of the first lap. Overall time was faster than the c winner but that’s down to thrashing that first lap. Ended up with a new 20min record.

All sounds good, by It wasn’t much fun though. C was a good fun ride, was slowly getting better. B is torture! I couldn’t do a much longer race than that one. It’s difficult to motivate yourself to do something that’s not much fun.

Signed up for the mixed one mentioned on here.

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You struggled to hold on for 2 laps, whilst there is someone in that race who is doing 2 or 3 of those races a day & getting podiums in all 3 races in b cat.

Yet, you are the same category as they won’t go over the power threshold.

It’s (still) a broken system.

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The system is broken or at least, the way we use the system is broken.
If he can hang on 2 laps in B but has no fun, if he gets moved down to C, then he becomes the problem.
I try to ignore my cat, just go where Zwift puts me and try to beat the people around me.
Sometimes I recognize a name from last week and I mark that person.
That’s how you get better.
You have to take all indoor efforts with a grain of salt.
2 weeks ago, IRL, I set a PR up a local hill.
Just over a 60 sec effort but I’m proud of PRs at age 58.
I’m not getting KOM’S but PRs are good in Zwift and IRL.

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You were FAR from the back at 55th of 78. Are you saying everyone you beat in C should quit racing as well?

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The Zwift culture is broken.
We have a person asking , perhaps /perhaps not, an honest question about categorizing riders in Zwift (a training tool/game).
The answers to his questions are accurate.

The take home message was:

  1. add a few KG to game wt
  2. start races and quit when dropped
  3. ride with robo pacer below cat limits for 90 days.
    :thinking:
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This. :point_up_2:

For me I just try and hang on as long a possible. Depending on who shows up, there is a slim chance if I win the bunch I’m in then its 1st place overall, sometimes win the group I’m in and it’s 50th overall. Just do your best. I race IRL over 40s Crits and there’s no accounting for who is fittest there, they just often win, getting fitter is the solution not asking to race weaker riders.

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I’m a solid C rider. I’ve won once, and podium’d a couple other times. But I also get trounced in the Cs some times. A lot of it depends on the course, or the field, or just what I ate for breakfast that day. Was in a ZRacing event earlier this week, the pack was humming along, and as happened to Dave, I just got blown up on the second lap. Saw the lead group pulling away, saw the folks behind me catching up. I get it when people say that’s not fun; it’s not fun to get spit out the back of the pack. I don’t get quitting racing because of that though. There were still other people who has also been dropped who I needed to try to beat. There were still seconds to take off my (poor) GC time for the series. There was still that guy 2 seconds back, who I was NOT going to let catch up to me (narrator - he got caught). Sometimes the motivation isn’t winning, or even staying with the lead group, but racing against whoever else is around you, or just racing for yourself. And there’s still the motivation to do better next time.

Is Cat Enforcement perfect? No. Are there people in the Cs who should probably be in the Bs, and people who have to race with the Bs who probably make sense in the Cs? Yes. Is it better than when there was no enforcement before? I think so.

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Looks like you enjoyed the race today with Split Cats.

From your race power data looks like you can improve with using the draft much more on the downhill to get some rest…you were doing steady 220W to 240W most of the time when you could save much more.
Anyway congats on the 1st Podium :muscle:

The biggest issue for me is you can get bumped up a category based on one strong race (that maybe just suits your racing style and is just the right length) but them potentially have to sit in that higher category for 90 days.

In my opinion (which I understand is just an opinion based on my experience) you should only get moved up a category if you show consistent high performance over a number of races…

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But it’s not about a race result on a course that suits you that’s going to bump you up with power-based categories. It’s your power output. And if you can do it, then you DO belong in the category up. See the several essays written by @Andreas_Traff in the Punch % thread on sandbagging, which he for some reason has re-named as “cruising” for his own purposes.

The ZwiftRacing.app categories your rank will come down as you underperform, so the more you race in the higher category the faster it will come down - unless you’re actually doing fine there, just not contesting wins.

We’ll see how the Zwift RacingScore works out for results-based. I think people are still going to be upset, as they’ll end up promoted to the point at which they aren’t on the podium every race.

Although I agree with this, I don’t think changing the culture is the solution. People will respond to the incentives by changing their behavior. If the incentive is to cross the line first, regardless of the strength of other riders around you, then people will try to find ways to do that in the most efficient way possible. If the incentive was to beat someone stronger than you, collect points for that, and get ranked (similar to other video games), then people would be looking for ways to “rank up”, instead of “race down”.

It looks, for me, that Zwift racing has a weird particularity. Instead of losing weight to try and be at the best W/KG ratio possible, people prefer (even some do) gain weight to have more raw power.

I still don’t quite understand how Zwift manages to apply watts and W/KG. I understand that pure watts are important in flat races and W/KG for hilly ones, but what is flat or hilly?

This might be part of my struggle to have good results on Zwift races. I’m an all-rounder, 69.5kg 273w FTP. I don’t excel in anything, but I don’t disappoint either :smile:. So flat races, I don’t have high power, hilly races, I’m not a pure climber. Sprint, not my thing as well… I’d be a good domestique :grin: :grin: :grin:

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Since the categories (below A+) are limited by W/kg, improving your W/kg just bumps you up to the next category and doesn’t help to win races. At a given W/kg, the heavier rider is faster in all circumstances, up hill, on the flat, and down hill. This is just a consequence of the physics of cycling (in real life, as well as zwift’s implementation).

So it’s routine for B cat riders who are strengthening and getting close to the upper limit for W/kg, to nudge their weight up a bit to stay below the threshold. And so on for C and D. Once you know what to look for, it’s obvious that this is completely routine, widespread, behaviour. It’s part of the pathology of zwift’s hopelessly broken classification system.

No need in A because they aren’t segregated from A+ anyway (except in the TTTs). And the bell curve of cycling performance means there aren’t that many riders at the upper threshold of A anyway.

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Doesn’t A cat have an artificially lower weight problem though? Since there is no upper limit, the only incentive is to increase w/kg at a given watt, which can be accomplished with a flick of a finger.

Yes quite possibly. However there’s no equivalent threshold so can’t spot so easily. Riders may just drop their weight as far as they feel they can get away with. Also in the handful of cases where some attempt at verification is made, it’s easier to artificially gain weight than to drop it.