Cat Enforcement needs to be more proactive during races

Racing
1

This is so incredibly frustrating that some boundaries can be broken so significantly and racers not even get in trouble for. And certainly not in a timely fashion that is meaningful.

What happened to the old cone of shame system?

I understand that CE in some places requires fine calculations at specific times through the day; however, when Zwift is pulling live data, it should absolutely know if someone goes full nuclear through Category boundaries.

In tonight’s race, I experienced a rider who took off in the distance in a WTRL ZRL B1 race, dropping the leaders like we weren’t even trying.
And it blows my mind that there’s nothing to stop people from being allowed to ruin races this way still.

There’s two problems with what I experienced tonight on ZRL; both of them are completely inexcusable for Zwift to take itself seriously about racing.

Exhibit one: the new race finish screen, where it tells you to look elsewhere to see the results of the race.
Screenshot 2023-10-04 003924

Okay cool, let’s go check on those results.
Okay yeah, companion says this guy took the win.
Let’s check other sources… yeah, WTRL, ZP both agree, this guy “won”.

But… huh, that power looks weird, what happens if we sort power by 5 minutes…
Exhibit two:

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This guy put out MAP power above A+'s on ZP, and Zwift can’t even be bothered to do anything about it several hours (soon to be 6 hours later and still no change) after the race is done; when nobody cares to look at results again.

What exactly is a “reasonable” timeline to view the results after a race when you know someone was so very clearly a cheater? One, two days? A full week later??

This “character” shouldn’t even have been allowed to finish this race tonight.

And I know this happens in lower Cats all the time, with folks ruining public races in D and C…
Nobody should be allowed to complete a race when they’re this far outside the boundaries of CE, period.

I’ve got my own personal issues with WTRL on this matter since he was Cat A literally 1 month before ZRL started, but this… this is about CE not being respectful to everyone else trying, when this clown laughed his way to the finish line.

5 Likes
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but if you had done 5.6 for 5 in that race you would not even have been upgraded andrew, provided your zftp remained under 250w. and you made that guy into some sort of cartoon villain but you don’t know anything about how he thinks or who he is. neither do i, so i’m not going to guess either

i disagree with the premise because it takes agency away from the organisers. if wtrl want the result to stand that should be their decision and race organisers should be allowed to make that kind of decision

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The point remains outside of WTRL.

Those numbers fall FAR outside of the 5.1w/kg zMAP, and the person is clearly WELL over 250w, and was upgraded with that event to Cat A according to ZP anyways.

The “villain” aspect of this is the fact that Zwift, and this rider himself knows he’s a Cat A, because he was just a Cat A rider literally 8 weeks ago…

I would HAPPILY take a cone of shame for going over power limits and take an upgrade to ensure everyone else gets to experience a fair and enjoyable race, and see themselves at the top of the leader board when they cross the line.

Meanwhile, it’s been 20 hours, and despite this guy being a Cat A now according to CE, he wasn’t disqualified for being an entire 0.5w/kg over the Cat limit according to Zwift’s own CE limits on the website.

The point remains…
This person took off from the leading group with an entire half lap remaining and proved he wasn’t a B on sight by continuing at a pace that… as proven, is well above B limits.

It’s one thing to be over the cat limit by 0.1w/kg or a fraction of an amount, and I understand the frustration for some getting the upgrade.

But to obliterate the race and have his CE reinstated to Cat A and not immediately be flagged for DQ???

This isn’t a WTRL specific issue; this is a Zwift issue.
He broke CE’s own rules, which ZRL just happens to follow.

I could point this out about any cat enforced race; WTRL/ZRL or not, this point stands there is a very clear issue with the system.

Are you trying to argue that he doesn’t deserve a DQ because he didn’t break zFTP limits, but smashing zMAP by 0.5w/kg is acceptable?
I fail to comprehend how that’s any different.

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Zwift’s decision not to DQ riders who exceed CE limits is 100% intentional. So if the question is “how can this happen” the answer is that it’s part of the design, the way they want it to be.

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it’s not about that guy or his numbers at all brother. generally i would rather just discuss things in my usual good mood instead of argue about stuff, but my position is that race organisers set the rules and the application of those rules should stay within their control

whether we like the rules they set or how firmly they apply them doesn’t matter, we can always choose to enter other races. but it’s the sort of thing that would be missed if it is removed

edit: to put it in a way that makes practical sense, race organisers having that kind of agency is how series like DRS and FRR, TFC, most zwiftracing . app based events etc are able to function… if every race was automated like a zhq event, you lose all of that.

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I get where you are coming from, but you’ve always been on the right side of those rules - lightweight, huge sprint, zFTP & zMap well over cat boundaries but saved by the watt ceiling…

When you fell the wrong side you didn’t like it…

It’s not always easy to take the high ground when you are on the wrong side of those boundaries.

2 Likes
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well, sure, i made my case, and martin politely told me to do one haha. that’s how it goes

but it’s not my point still lee, the category system isn’t the point. the point is that, say, if i rode your series as a B and you wanted to DQ me or ask me to race A in the future instead, you can do that. if you automate everything, you can’t

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Sure we can…i removed Watt Floors so could ZHQ or ZRL.

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dejan friend, if you want me to say that ce is busted then i will, since it is. but andrew’s problem is really with wtrl and how they have set up and run their event.

and i guess he is salty that the guy rode away from him in the race, when people use someone specific as an example thats usually the case. the exact same thing happened in my zrl race on tuesday too, i just never bothered mentioning it

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WTRL should have given him a code 7 and reduced his points to 1 for that race. If he took off solo, it’s no big deal. If he pulled teammates with him, that’s a whole other issue.

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It isn’t though.
ZRL uses Cat Enforcement rules, you can ask them this and they will say yes, they stopped using ZP, and started using CE this year.

@Lee_H The problem is this isn’t something that I am just complaining about “because I lost”
The entire field of folks witnessed this guy disappear into the sunset and are also complaining; they just aren’t here, on the forum, complaining about it…

I’ve had teammates Code7, but the only differences I’m able to spot is they’ve been DQ’d because of their 20 minute power.
This guy smoked zMAP, but isn’t getting flagged for DQ.

Geralt: that for sure is up to WTRL.
I personally like to put a lot of pressure on captains; they should absolutely know who and what their team members are capable of, and watching a fellow captain let this person get away with this just shocks me.

Said captain also said they were as a team in voice chat.

… They let this guy rip off and half of their team even saw it happen; and they didn’t even stop him at the risk of Code7 and damaging the team’s points this race?

I’m just as confused as anyone about the whole scenario.

The only part I’m actually frustrated by is why a cat upgrade, and zMAP out of bounds, isn’t triggering a DQ.
Again… 0.5w/kg is pretty far over the line to not be immediately flagged.

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I think this is the right thing to do though. If this guy didn’t push as much as he is capable of, he wouldn’t have gotten the upgrade and we would be talking about him sandbagging.

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not strictly true, CE is the base of their rules. the actual rules they use are A: listed in some long ass pdf nobody, including me, can be bothered to read and B: extremely bendable and subject to change on a daily basis. for what it’s worth i hope your appeal goes well, it’s not like i personally think the result should stand. but i am not wtrl

as i say, same thing happened in my race. i just thought it was an interesting experience personally

1 Like
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heh; don’t get me wrong I have my issues with sandbagging, but… MOST sandbaggers also don’t show their true colors in such a fashion to jog away with half a lap remaining and remain unseen at higher power anyone else is clearly capable of.

I’d argue “most” sandbaggers have to risk their actual finish line positions to not be too obvious, and some can fluctuate to make it work better.
But to disappear from a Div1 race is… unrealistic.

SA:
Okay fair enough, you’re correct there, and I am not sure of either way.

However I still want to be clear that it’s ‘unusual’ that a DQ isn’t given when zMAP is broken, I mean this specifically on ZPower (unless WTRL’s rulings also overrule whatever ZPower would normally give?.. again I’m not sure how this exact stuff works).

Sorry I’m frustrated otherwise yall lol, it’s just very confusing from my perspective.

No responses have been given from ZP support; WTRL didn’t get a definite timeline for their calculations.

So perhaps ZRL races do indeed override ZP’s own auto DQs…?
If so; it really would be handy to have more clarification on this stuff; for any and all series.

Between that finishing menu saying “go check results on companion,”: and not understanding when this stuff is resolved is hopefully as anyone can see… confusing.

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Which time zone is this?

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ahh… so basically, zwift, and the proponents of CE when it was first introduced decided that auto DQ tags weren’t necessary anymore since if you exceed the category limits, you have to ride in the next category anyway. I guess the reasoning is they didn’t want to “punish” people for doing a strong effort

wtrl have their own rules, which they may or may not apply on top of that. for example lee mentioned it earlier, i got my own DQ in race 1 which i’m fine with but also am not even gonna try and pretend i didnt appeal the hell out of

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So fun fact follow up; I’m at the state of impression now talking with SA that this is more or less just due to how ZRL runs things, not Zwift / CE exactly (again this is why this is so confusing to me).

But if anyone is curious; apparently Catting up and having a zMAP well into the cat level above is totally acceptable according to WTRL…

the more you know.

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I’ve got the same suspicion i think they are still using some sort of historc system like the old measure for 20 min power rather than DQ based on zMap values.

That might be because WTRL don’t have access to CE confgiuration and they are making the best of what they can work with. either way it’s all rather confusing. I’ve seen riders be code 7 when not going over CE values and the opposite as you suggest riders going over zMap and not DQ.

End of the day ZRL Is about getting people racing if you are looking for a higher level of fairness best avoid zrl and try out some of the other great series.

2 Likes
19

For sure working to get to that point. I realize of course some series will experience this “same” issue, which I put down to communication.

Someone on discord was asking why folks doing the Chasing Tour didn’t cat themselves correctly; at which point I just said it’s likely due to people not reading the information.

Hopefully one day Zwift offers a better system for series hosts to better communicate how their events work. (also a better system to find series would be handy too!)

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My impression is the opposite. Someone from one of my club’s teams got zero points in race 1 if ZRL due to ezceeding category zFTP.

If this had been a pure Zwift CE race then there would have been no DQ, just a post-race upgrade.