This is a great point - you’ve highlighted a key difference between Zwift and IRL racing which could explain why Zwift hasn’t rushed enforcement - “When people are paying to race.…”
Some people on Zwift see their subscription as “paying to race”, whereas others see their subscription as like a club membership fee, and racing as being “free”.
Of the ones who think it’s “free”, some of them take it less seriously and I think Zwift’s probably trying to keep both groups happy, which is probably why they haven’t rushed enforcement.
Yes you are missing having read the 1222 other posts in this thread . This has been covered many many times before .
To summary ( but really lets not go over this AGAIN) Its the essense of what we think Auto Cat should do . It sets you a starting category appropriate to where you should start from , in other words to mitigagte for what you have said .
LIttle reason is not the same however as no reason at all . So the rationale is still relevant and should be implemented as option for when those little reasons are required .
In fact this is also along with Gender restrictions already supported and is often used .
Actually its one benefit ( improvement) that a categorisation enforcement policy would deliver that has not been aired much . It would put and end to disqualifications based on what you did in the race .
Its a completely unsatisfactory situation that at the same time as you put in your personal best performance that moves you up a category which should be something to celebrate and be proud of , Zwift hands you a congratulatory disqualification badge.
That needs to go . You were deemed appropriate to enter and particupate in an event until such time as you are not . Doing that upfront will go hand in glove with NOT doing that retrospectively …
The two first races of ZRL are qualifying races, so during those two races and before the third, one should expect riders and teams to have to move. From race 3, riders and teams should not have to move until next season.
Categorization enforcement without qualification would make racers cruise to be put in a lower category, and then use their full potential once they are placed in a fixed category.
For single races, disqualification retrospectively should off course not happen when categorization enforcement is used.
Last year I think we all thought this was going to be a big problem , because of the numbers of riders , the churn of new and returning riders . This season I am not sure it actually is more than a sideshow distraction as the numbers racing outside of a few well known events is pretty low . Some might say its still early days for the virtual season but like for like I think the likely projection is Zwift racing is going to be far more niche and smaller scale this year , for a number of unavoidable and of course avoidable reasons .
How will it stop disqualification, if a rider enters a D race and goes over Cat limits they will still be DQ. We as race organisers set the race rules with the tool set we already have. What it would change is riders entering the wrong Cat to start with, that is the main concern for most organisers.
Yes and No… we have already seen riders who were a C three months ago and are now a D, so they do their 3 races and then race the rest of the series at 3.0 W/Kg and win every race, the upgrades have to be applied to every race or people will yet again game the system.
Fair racing is about all riders entering the correct Cat and if they improve they move to a Cat where they compete with riders of a similar ability and not looking at a power meter to make sure they stay just under limits.
For single races the organiser sets the rules, we do this already. All we want is a system to put people in the right cat at the start of a race. We will sort the rest out.
This is not just about organizers its about users too . And to be arbitrarily disqualified because you did a good ride , because you are improving as a rider if nothing else , is not a good UX .
Yes upgrade for next time , but DQ is plain wrong in that context.
It is only required right now because there is no pre-qualification on rider . Once that is in place , we dont have a need to disqualify for this reason. You get the ability to set entry requirements which is certainly what everyone has been pleading for .
Fair racing is also that you can expect racers to improve during a 8 week series. It is fair to them to not bump them up just because they went slightly over a limit.
An upgrade of one team member can ruin the whole series for the rest of the team.
Fair goes both ways.
The only way you will stop riders gaming a physiological-based category system is to not have categories. No piece of code can work out a rider’s intentions. Progress is often constrained by what we already know - in this case the category system.
Imagine no categories, where the pens are determined by logic chosen by the race organiser, so sometimes you’re the hammer and sometimes you’re the nail. If you beat better riders your ranking improves. There is no longer any incentive to artificially manage performance - everyone will just want to do as well as they can in every single race.
There are separate challenges with team events and leagues, but if we think differently to start with, those challenges diminish.
I have run No Cat series and all the normal sandbaggers didn’t turn up, after a few races you have your rivals you want to beat, you and they maybe way down in the results but you still have great racing against them. It is something else which can be done, and remember there was a time we didn’t have Cat’s on the platform, racing was still fun though, although very different…
I’m not saying pens shouldn’t be split based on some logic to keep races interesting and competitive - being able to do that is what will set good event organisers apart from the rest - but the issue at the moment is it is incredibly easy to game the system. I very easily could have stayed a top B simply by never doing a 20 min flat out effort (TT or hill climb). I stayed a B for over a year even though my FTP was easily A, and I wasn’t deliberately managing my efforts at all, just trying to race smart. That is NOT a good system.
I often think that the whole Category thing is just over complicating perhaps . Mass Events are quite often the best events you have . Everyone rides to there ability and races with those around them ( doesn’t that sound a bit like what the failed Auto Cat was trying to do !!) .
There is no sandbagging if there are no bags in the first place
On top of that how do you stop people gaming the system , it is a game . Competitive sport by its definition will always have a gaming dimension. Sometimes called tactics.
if we just all rode together , a sandbagger would just be forced to ride with those more appropriate e.g. if it was a C rider he would be riding up against B ( or A’s when it gets really crazy) .
It all depends on how far over you will allow… a D putting out 3.0W/Kg is hardly fair, WTRL do allow people to go over but not too far.
What is not fair is the people who know from day one they are way under their ability and have gamed the system so there is no natural progression. To say anyone can stay in Cat just opens it up to even more sandbaggers and we have enough already.
Well the assumption of course we are making is that users start in the correct category in this new world .
That is an acceptance criteria for whatever Zwift come up with , which we don’t need reminding they have not shared in any level of detail . So we have no idea if they understand that . If they do , then I assume your concerns go away , if they don’t … then its back to the drawing board … and more threads like this going on for another [insert a number of years of choice}
If you can auto assign pens, there should be no need to DQ for over performance post race. Those over performing will move up, those who manage their 20min efforts will continue to do so as they do now (thats just an issue with current system until a ranking system comes)
You then get the reward of win/good position and move up a Cat if you meet the requirements.
I think end users would move towards that path rather than the current system of upgrades and Dqs post race.
Yes I agree all together is fun and for that reason I’ll probably be doing a bit of ZHR masters races over the winter. Everyone (apart from perhaps the very strongest few) is challenged plenty hard enough!
As it is, I can mostly forget about cats and sandbaggers by racing at the low end of A but while last season was ok, my ZRL A1 division is just a bit too tough for me this time sadly.
