Anti sandbagging and other areas that need development and communication

Racing
562

Immediate solution.
Simply enforce the current category limits on entry. Use the customers existing w/kg info. Simple, this could be rolled out in a week. It would go A LONG WAY to fixing the issues. Make your anti sandbagging system effective in all races to catch those who attempt to game this temporary solution.

Short term solution
Do the same, simply add more categories. There is considerable room for improvement. Particularly at the lower w/kg range. Personally, I wouldn’t mess with the +/- stuff. I’d simply add more. Elite, A, B, C, D, E, F. Even better, to remove the horrible entry level sounding F cat, I’d just use a basic number system like the U.S. I’d go Pro, Elite, Cat 1 through Cat 8, if needed. Basically, slowly add categories until we’re all in half a w/kg buckets. That would provide very fair racing.

Mid term solution
Add advanced rider metrics to find the serial cruisers and cheaters. Warn them, then ban them if they continue to cheat etc

Long term solution
Results based system. This is actually massively complex, as I’m sure you’re aware. Personally, grouping people into rider type based on their power curve sounds absolutely horrible. I don’t want to race against me. I want a cornucopia of different riders, just like IRL. Besides, how could that possibly work? You put a C grade FTP rider who has a great sprint in A because their 5 second power is good? It’s their fault they have a good sprint? Sorry folks, some people don’t have the genetics required. We want fair racing, not make believe.

Thanks for finally engaging with your community on this issue.

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563

Lightweight people (including very many women) and youngsters would be effectively prevented from racing. This is why w/kg isn’t the only metric used by ZwiftPower’s categorisation system.

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564

I’ve worded that wrong, they wouldn’t be prevented from racing as such. To avoid being flagged though they’d be required to race in a category where the overwhelming majority of others are significantly and unrealistically faster. Same outcome.

1 Like
565

Myself and a group of friends have already actually done this brain storming session on new riders.

It’s funny, just writing it here will help cheaters, anyway…

When a new rider joins Zwift they are NOT allowed to race in community racing until they have completed a qualifying race. This is a real race against other first timers, they are held regularly. It’s a short Crit style race etc, with a few fun and useful instructions at the start, before the race. If a racer wins, they get a prize (in game bike etc). We want their best performance. The fastest rider on Earth couldn’t finish in under 20mins. Call it 30mins for most riders.

This then gives Zwift some useful power data to place the new rider in say Cat 5 (D grade). They then begin racing, if they are stronger or weaker in future races based on better data, they are moved to the correct category.

The danger here is people gaming the system. Deliberately racing easily etc. To be fair I doubt this would be significant. Additionally, simply linking your Strava account would give Zwift useful power data if a customer wanted to speed up the process. These linked Strava accounts could be used to help verify performance of Elite and Pro riders.

In short, a fun qualifying Crit race with a short racing tutorial for all new racers.

Job done.

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566

No thanks. The current Crit City anti-sandbagging system boots plenty of legitimate racers, and doesn’t flag plenty of cheaters. It’s a badly flawed system and should be removed.

6 Likes
567

Why I no longer race.

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568

I don’t know why they don’t just use the ZwiftPower categories… i.e. you can only enter your category on Zwiftpower or above… problem 90% solved…

5 Likes
569

I’m aware of the current anti sandbagging solution and its issue with light riders.

I myself only weigh 60kgs. I think I’m going on 300 Zwift races entered now. I’ve done a vast array of different events. The ZHQ crits are still many times better than open cheater races. Especially for D graders. I think many here are above that grade and haven’t even raced a D grade ZHQ. They are almost the only chance of a fair entry level race on Zwift, currently.

Yes, if you’re a kid or a light weight woman, you’ll be mistakenly coned. Not ideal. However, as a race, they are more often, fairer. When a blatant sandbagger goes flying off, they get coned and the race continues. Less one, or more often 4 or 5 sandbaggers. Happy days.

I’ve also seen it not work at all. Not catch many ZP riders. As demonstrated above it also regularly cones people in the sprint. Kinda a bit late :grinning:

I could offer a complicated solution to the anti sandbagging problem as many have done above. I’m more concerned with immediate solutions.

Maybe tweak the current anti sandbagging equation? Enforce categories at entry and use the current (improved version) to catch the cruisers?

Honestly, I’d be happy with just the simple, I want to enter D, D button turns grey, I can’t enter… job done.

That solves a lot of issues. The rest will need considerable time and thought to implement.

6 Likes
570

Wouldn’t both forms of sandbagging be easily addressed by:

  1. Auto categorize the start pens
    And
  2. Win or podium 3 races in a 30 day period, move up a class (? for 90 days).
6 Likes
571

I agree @Tim_Camden_C

I would just say 3 podiums in 30days get you a 30 day upgrade or even 15 days. It needs to still be fun to race a short upgrade will give others the chance to win and the upgraded racer time to test the next level.

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572

One thing which could make some people feel the categories are more fair is if people were helped to understand their strengths.

For example, I used to think racing wasn’t fair for me - I always got dropped on the flats - and then I learned that I’m a better climber, so I targeted a summit finish and got third overall and my first ZP win.

It was this article which helped me:

573

In some races there may only be five or so ZwiftPower finishers.

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574

Happens quite often on longer races… usually coinciding with some people up front sandbagging. My guess being the lead pace was unreasonably high, so lots drop out rather than trudge to the end riding alone for 30km+.

Just another symptom of these people spoiling the race.

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575

You’re 100% right Paul.

Many Zwift users are totally unfamiliar with their power curve, or how it correlates to racing etc. Zwift could greatly help new riders understand this in their first qualifying race tutorial.

The facts are that certain riders will win a majority of certain races. It’s exactly what happens in real world cycling. I’ve spoken about this multiple times here. You cannot expect to win, it’s a totally unrealistic expectation.

If however, you have the genetic potential and the appropriate training, you may excel at certain races. If you are a fast twitch athlete with a very powerful sprint, it is highly likely that you will do well in short crit races. As you would in real life.

If you have a fantastic FTP, low weight and high sustained power, you’ll do well on mountain top finishes. As you would in real life.

If you don’t have these qualities, you’ll very rarely win, if ever. As it would be in real world racing.

That’s how it works. Not everyone gets a lollipop.

Now, this bumping racers up categories based on race results… This is very complex, as explained, certain riders will win a majority of certain races. It’s literally not their fault, they are exceptional at certain things. It’s why they win. So, do we artificially penalize these riders because they are good at climbing, or sprinting etc?

That is easier said than done. It’s why a results based system is complex in cycling. It’s complex in real life, and virtually. The W/kg levels and various grades are based on nothing other than a number. There is no mythical line separating an athletes physiology in real life. The racing categories are just their for us weaker riders to experience a fun equal race.

Without them, none of us would ever win a race, or even come close to it. The elite riders would win every single race. Without fail. Which they should.

So, we invented category and age group racing. For us average humans to experience better racing. Triathlon for example does very well by including age group racing. People find it rewarding. However, it is an illusion. If you win a C grade race, you haven’t actually won anything. In front of you are 50 Bs and another 50 As, they all beat you… all of them.

What we all want is a fun race experience. Group people into similar abilities. Stop stronger riders dropping down into lower races and ruining our experience.

What will still happen, is the better sprinters will still win a majority of the crit races, regardless of A,B,C,D etc. This is how cycling works. It’s what is to be expected.

This could only be changed by Zwift tweaking the fundamental math that the game runs on. Currently, Zwift does not provide enough draft affect. It also significantly rewards groups average speed over individuals riders etc.

This means riders cannot breakaway, late race attacks almost never win. So, Zwift races are a bunch of people riding together at sweetspot or threshold with a fast final 1min, then a sprint. Most races play out exactly like this. It rewards the people that suit this style of racing.

So, my message to the folk at Zwift. Let’s start by simply not allowing stronger riders to enter certain races. Maybe, not even all races. Let the event organizers decide on how they want their races to play out.

I’d be stoked with a single race on the hour, every hour, that ran the new enforced category system.

We just try this for a few weeks and we see how it works. Easy.

8 Likes
576

It would be nice to see a tweak that lets a breakway get away.
But, first things first.

577

Your post made a lot of sense except your message to Zwift. Do you mean that some races should only be for riders at the lower end of the category or riders with a power profile that doesn’t match the route profile?

578

Spot on :+1:t3:

The only thing I will add is that Zwift is a virtual platform and the possibilities are endless, but I agree it’s all about the experience not the winning. I think most want to race and see some sort of growth. It starts with not getting dropped after the hard start, then maybe staying with the pack until the end, then maybe a better placed finish, then maybe an attack or something strategic or then challenge for the sprint at the end. We all want growth, it’s a natural human instinct.

For those of us in specific categories, Zwift can still help with meet-ups. If I want to create a mini community of light weight riders chasing 250w ftp who like to climb, I’m sure I could find 20,30,50 riders globally chasing the same goal where we could meet up each week and have a training race. But the function in Zwift doesn’t work properly yet and would soon be frustrating because the results don’t work. We can’t validate the growth.

But that’s another way to create a fun and engaging racing environment because I’m in control of who enters to eliminate spoilers.

5 Likes
579

Sorry. I just meant let’s at least get a trial running asap. I just imagined that race organizers might want to run their races in their own manner.

I’m not sure how they all view it.

Let Zwift HQ run a category enforced series to get things rolling.

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580

Not sure if this has ever been brought up before but I wonder how hard it would be to show a rider’s ZP category in-game when racing, regardless of what Cat they signed up for. I did the Olympic Chase race yesterday and thought how nice it would be to know which A or B riders signed up in the C pen. It would be great to just see them listed as A or B and the respective color represented in the game and companion app (i.e., red or green). Would eliminate the need to chase any flyers that are out of category.

3 Likes
581

What you can do is open ZP on the live tab and watch them there. A bit of a workaround but it works most of the time (lately the live tab is hit or mis)

But ultimately they need to be in the correct category to start with!

2 Likes