Strangely no. When I see your comments re WTRL, I have similar problems but in another timezone!
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I’ve done similar 3R races for precisely the reason all categories start together! This has been commented on other threads, but I like them because I will find a group to race with.
When I do smaller B cat races (I think they tend to be around 20 riders) I get spat out the back on my own and ride solo. I would love to ride in smaller races and be competitive, but my only choice at the moment for that is to sandbag or cruise in C.
I’m hopeful for the pen enforcement and the one race I did in that was a lot better.
I do like that idea especially if there could be a bit more logic so that if there are splits it doesn’t just split it into equal sized groups, but had a bit more intelligence so it could split so there are 5 groups, but with the least difference in best and worst rider per group if that makes any sense.
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Anecdotal experience from a female zwifter where pens numbers are often small… be wary of small pen sizes on longer (i.e. around 20-30km +) as the probability of you spending the whole race riding on your own with no other riders greatly increases. I feel bad for it sometimes as I want to support the women’s racing and Zwifting scene but unless there are enough people in the pen (race/ride/whatever) those Zwift experiences are not fun at all and I’ll join the mixed/open race/ride pen. Solo TT is fine if that’s what you’ve signed up for… but not if its forced on you by having a small pen size and riders being spread all over the course.
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No, some people like mass starts. If (for example) 3R started doing separate starts I wouldn’t race in them, unless of course you are right and a ton more people started doing them. I suspect that wouldn’t happen, but it is possible.
I’ll qualify my perspective slightly. I really don’t actually care about how the races are started or the race format. My simple way of selecting races is to see how many people are in my category (A), how many finished last week, and what the resulting ranking numbers looked like and might look like.
Since I am precluded from racing for podiums due to an anemic sprint, my metric is how low I can get my race rank.
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I don’t say this often but I hope you are wrong…LOL. It will be awesome if the smaller races get more participation.
Lightweight Riders is one of the many mathermatical and logical issues I’m trying to get my head around.
If
150W equates to a 60kg rider
200W equates to a 62.5kg rider
250W equates to a 62.5kg rider
300W equates to a 65.217kg rider
Someone please explain to me how it was decided that these weights of rider in each category were the weights at which riders below those weights needed help. And please please please don’t tell me that someone just thought that
150
200
250
300
went up in a nice even 50 watt pattern !! (Want to bet on what I think)
My logical dilemma (and I know heavy riders are not going to like this)
Let’s take the 60 Kg rider and the 150watts (although the 150watts is fairly irrelevant to my question)
If someone somewhere has identified and calculated that riders under 60kg need some additional help to make them a bit more competitive at what weight point does a 60kg rider need some help riding against heavier riders. A 50kg rider against a 60kg rider is a lot closer (10kg and 20% of their weight) than a 60kg rider is to an 80kg rider (20kg and 33%). I believe there is some information on ZwiftInsider on the effects of Draft and how it has a bearing on the watts needed to stay in the pack at various weights. I will probably try and review the information again.
How were weight limits decided for lightweight riders and were they based on pro cyclists around 68kg or amateur cyclists around 78 kg (weights from reading and memory so may not be fully accurate and both I think male only riders).
Do we know the average weight of Zwift riders or, probably currently more relevant ZwiftPower signed up racers, both male and female. (For those interested it was 77.24kg for all 169 riders in the Cat B Monday test race at 18:00)
Last question - If a lightweight rider needs help against a set weight (60kg, 62.kg or 65.217kg) rider in mixed events does a lightweight lady rider(probably with lighter weight limits) get a similar allowance against a heavier lady rider in ladies only races or are ladies race categories only decided upon by FTP w/kg limits?
These are not questions we should be dealing with but I would certainly hope someone in Zwift setting Lightweight Rider allowances would be considering. (If you do in fact know the answers I for one would be very happy to learn more)
I think this was probably exactly it (remember it was not set by Zwift, but by the community-led Zwift Power).
This is the opportune time to suggest a better model.
I think this is an interesting change of perspective; so let’s assume the following:
- There will always be a maximum of 5 “Pens” setting off, the current “A-E”, possibly renamed in the future. Assuming that adding more Pens requires too much of an overhaul.
- However, there may be more than 5 categories. Going by CP, there may be as many as 12 categories (roughly speaking the 4 current categories sliced in roughly equal bands.
Am I correct in thinking that rather than having race organizers define the boundary of A-E, they would rather decide which race categories belong to which Pen? So for example;
- The “classic” bands: (E) Cat 1, (A) Cat 2-3, (B) 4-6, (C) 7-9, (D) 10-12;
- Bands “shifted up”: (E) Cat 1-2, (A) Cat 3-4, (B) 5-7, (C) 8-10, (D) 11-12;
- Bands “shifted down”: (E) Cat 1-2, (A) Cat 3-5, (B) 6-8, (C) 9-10, (D) 11-12;
- D-specific: Pen (A) Cat 1-8, Pen (B) Cat 9, (C) Cat 10, (D) Cat 11, (E) Cat 12.
- Or any combination of the above. If it is a generally well-attended race then it may even be set up such that each category only sees each other, rather than that only each Pen sees each other?
Is this the line that Zwift is thinking for CP-based pen splitting options, as opposed to a CP w/kg slider where organizers can set a limit to their liking at the one-decimal accuracy (which would inherently be limited to 5)?
And would it be feasible to have (A-D) “Race Pens” implemented together with an (E) “Open Pen” that can see and draft all other pens, while the “Race Pens” only see and draft their own pen? So in comparison to Meetups, (A-D) would each be in their “private meetup”, while (E) would be the “regular world”, but then of course only limited to those that entered the race and not all Zwifters online.
Very interested in the thoughts on this.
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Or not.
Seriously, what is the point of a better model? What is the goal here? We know it’s not a viable long-term solution anyway. We could spend the best part of a decade refining a better model…and it still wouldn’t be any good.
We’ve already got a model that roughly matches people based on ability, it gives some lightweights a chance on some (few) courses while mostly favouring heavier riders, it allows for a fairly mediocre racing experience that isn’t so crappy that no-one does it. Let’s do something better next time, rather than tweaking parameters to fix the races so a slightly different set of people get to win day after day without getting upgraded.
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No doubt, but changing the wattage floor to something else is probably extremely easy to do, so if someone can demonstrate a major issue with the current approach, it can be changed in pretty short order. Or we just leave it. Makes no difference to me.
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It’s basically a ten minute job. Takes longer to roll it out than to actually make the change.
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I’m so going to regret saying this 
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RIP James’s Zwift career.
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“So James, can I ask if you enjoyed your time working at Zwift Inc?”
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Yeah, sounds about right, probably the same thing for something like half the things on the Bugs board… The overhead of deciding which 10-min jobs to do and deploying them does add up, though.
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The number of Pens Required
How those Pens, or single Pen, might operate
Should this be a separate thread where no mention of FTP/ MAP/ Wkg/ Race Ranking/ category boundaries/ Sandbaggers/ cruisers/ winners/ losers is allowed at all? I’m going to try.
Pens with a large amount of riders is a nice problem to have. Nice problems are generally easy to sort.
Two questions on Pens and large number of riders:
- Ideally what is the minimum number of riders in a Pen I would consider acceptable?
- Ideally what is the maximum numbers of riders in a Pen I think makes for enjoyable racing?
Worked example from replies received:
Racers prefer Pens with 20-80 riders.
Based on 160 ( example) riders there will never:
- Be less than 2 pens.
- Be more than 8 Pens (subject to the maximum number of Pens Zwift can provide in any one race time slot).
Solution found for large numbers of race entries. Tick.
Small numbers of riders in a race time slot is slightly more complicated.
(Using the racers ideal minimum figure of 20 above)
If there are less than 20 riders signed up for a race time slot would I:
- Race in a one, all riders visible, race? Yes/No
Yes - Please go to next section
No - Many thanks for your feedback to Zwift on Pen sizes.
So we now have only one, less than 20 minimum, small Pen.
Do you think all riders should be treated as being in one open ‘single category’ race ( See Single below)
OR
Would you prefer riders to be identified by the category they would have raced in had we had a large number of riders - (see Multiple below)
Single - The answer you have given here means you are happy to race in your own Zwift world race jersey having all riders visible for just one winner and one set of results covering all racers.
Multiple - The answer you have given means we will kit you with a race jersey of a specific design which identifies all those who would have been in the same category. Everyone will race visible and together but the Results will cover both the full race result as well as identifying separate placing by category, much the same as we do with Chase races.
Solution to small race entries. Solution possibly ticked.
Hopefully no mention of any word which belongs in another forum thread.
My own personal opinion, but with no actual race experience myself, is that if I have to race with a small number of racers I would rather do it seeing all of those riders but also able to see who I was really racing against both on the screen and when I looked at the results.
I see this option very much as a Chase Race in reverse. Instead of the A Category all dressed in Red catching you from behind they start at the same time as you and race away from you. (Small caveat: in this race they will probably try and drop you from the get go with a super fast start, in a real chase race I expect they pass your group at speed just faster than your own group and you feel you have a chance to hang on for a little or at least until the road suddenly goes up appreciably)
Race result sheet will look exactly the same.
No more from me today I am getting grief at home and one long post a day is my limit.
Edit: afterthoughts
Single pen races could also be run as a proper small field chase race.
How far in advance would a cut off decision be made regarding Pen composition and final race format.
How would those riders waiting to start a race be made aware of the final race format.
Would there need to be a final join up time after which nobody would be allowed to join a race or would they then just be added according to the final race format setup.
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Today an organiser can choose how many pens there are.
The minimum is 1, the maximum is 5.
Change the maximum to 8 (or 10 if possible?)
Assuming the ability to configure the pens is coming further down the round, sorted. 
Logical examples:
- Age cat racing with 6 age-bands. Number of pens required: 6.
- Mixed category/power racing, split by gender: Number of pens required: 2.
- League set up with 8 different categories. Number of pens required: 8.
- Weekly crits with low attendance: Number of pens required: 4
- Long endurance race - suits bigger fields. Number of pens required: 4.
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Actually lots. There’s a “club curling” Canadian championship for curlers who are not competitive - there’s always people who skirt the definition of a competitive curler to try to win that.
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those watt limits were decided when zp was still an unaffiliated community project developed by 1 guy, james hodges (probably with input from the racing community), maybe 4 or 5 years ago, before i ever had a zwift account. they probably weren’t rigidly tested based on tons of data and the physics and other things have all changed in zwift at least 2 or 3 times since those limits were set
while there are some huge holes in the system (i know there are because i’m personally more than willing to take advantage of them), it did the job reasonably well anyway when there was no alternative and made zwift racing fun enough for people like me to get into doing a lot of it. mr hodges has all of my respect
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James Hodge’s also has my respect and I will bear that in mind should I attempt to make flippant comments again in the future. I imagine he put a lot of his own free time and effort into the current system to make it what it is today.
I am only trying to understand how FTP and minimum watts have been co-joined (if that is even the right word to use) and arrived at. As many others have asked is there really a need to fix the wheel if it is not broken.
Is there any chance all of the base working information is available through him or others.
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