Like online poker tournaments.
If category promotion is something that is meant to be something to strive for, it has to be achievable. It gets harder and harder to go up the ladder, so the category system should take that into account. Going from bottom B to A is a huge difference in ability. Many will not have time/motivation/energy to do it.
The number of categories should also reflect how many racers there are within a certain range of ability.
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I considered suggesting specific category numbers, but decided that Zwift could do that better based on typical race numbers. Basically set the pens to keep approximately equal numbers of riders in each pen.
Making this dynamic and varying the number of pens, as you suggest, would be even better. That approach should have the added benefit of dissuading “gaming” the system since the category boundaries would not be known before the race began. (The metrics used to define the categories should be known. The specific cut-off values would not.)
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yes it is a difference and I’m testament to that, I didn’t set out to become an A rider, I just raced as @Michael_Sparshatt got me involved and said it was a bit of fun, wasn’t fun for me whilst i was finding my legs, getting shelled out the back of B races. Forward a little over 12 months from my first race I’m now in A and holding my own at times, not bad for someone who is over 40
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I think my concern with more default categories would be the smaller races.
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It’s there an issue with starting pens too?
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You can put multiple categories in the same pen.
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That can’t see eachother?
It would REALLY help to differentiate the Race Cats by number: 1, 2, 3, etc and the event routes by letter: A, B, C, etc. Using letters for both only serves to confuse ride and race entrants as to where they need to go.
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Yep, if subgroup filtering is set and start times are staggered.
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OK cool!
What do you think the minimum number of participants in each category should be? Stuart suggests 80 maximum. I’ve been in some fun races with fewer than 20 riders.
Dynamically defined categories could be set up to target race category rider numbers between 20 and 80 with a maximum range of 0.4 w/kg. Races with low entry numbers would be problematic but most seem to end up with more than 80 riders participating.
What we’re really after is a way to provide a competitive race experience for everyone. A rider at the bottom of “B” who can hold 3.2 w/kg is not going to be able to hang with riders at the top of “B” pushing 3.99 w/kg. Narrowing the category range is one way to do that.
If larger races are required, another might be to change the category range from race to race. So sometimes it’s 3.20 - 3.99 w/kg, sometimes it’s 3.00-3.79 w/kg, sometimes it’s 2.80-3.59 w/kg…
I still think that 0.79 w/kg range is far too wide…
Im good with 20+ per cat tbh. Depends on the terrain though. Under 20 and it gets a bit lonely.
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We’ve had some great 5v5 races…
Put this one in the bucket of ‘let the race organiser decide’
If you could have up to 8 pens, as an example - well, that would be awesome.
There is value in races with big fields and races with small fields.
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This is a hard one but I would say 10 is a nice number. But if the pens could be dynamic so if only 10 racers enter the event there would be just one pen but if 100 enter there would be 5. This would make the boundaries less static and make racing interesting even if the field are small.
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I think the minimum field size you want varies with race length.
How does a minimum of 1 person per kilometre of racing sound?
If all categories start together and if (unlike now) any ranking system is based on everyone that starts together, then the smaller (e.g. 3R, EVR) type races could just continue as they are with multiple categories that start at the same time.
As a barely marginal A racer, I do fine in small races. But I know that when there is a big popular race with 200+ A racers I’ll be spat out the back at the end of my anaerobic endurance, 45-60 seconds in. Too many, too fast, too hard.
But it would be nice to try one of those in the B’s. Still wouldn’t win because no sprint.
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A bit off topic but I will ask in anyway: don’t you think those races are small because that all start together. 3R has a volcano climb race that I really like but the fact that they start all the categories together take the fun out of the race. If they start using the pen enforcement then I will definitely join again.
I’m very likely a minority voice but time zones are the culprit for me. ZP history on attendance numbers seem very clear with likes of WTRL events / TdZ type series - small population, not many racers to attend.
So your suggestion …
…would nicely solve that one for me. I understand why you are against all Cats together, but for us at top of lower cat trying to improve, we need to see the next cat to fuel the hunger to improve.
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Are we in the same time Zone? That is my problem as well not a lot of options early morning USA.