Hi there. Can anyone tell me what the punch percentage is on ZwiftPower and how it’s calculated? Also how I can go about increasing my punch 
%
Thank you all
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Thanks S_ticky_KRT
Hi,
I am confused how the Punch Percentile Score is calculated in Zwift Power. I have read the posts & still cannot relate to how it is calculated.
Please provide a worked example (that is easy to follow) so I can understand the arithmetric.
Thank you, Kevin B.
As I understand from the forum posts, it uses some metric that measures the variability of your power output (normalised power divided by average power?), and then assesses in which percentile of the distribution you are.
So, a value of 90% means that you typically race with a higher variability in power output (ie, you have a higher NP/AP) than 90% of all other racers (only efforts in which your average power exceeds 75% of your ftp are counted, I think).
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While being something to admire in real life racing, I don’t think anyone should strive for a higher punch rating on ZwiftPower, not as things stand today with the race rules and category system. Punch is helpful in a race for sure, but a really high punch rating also implicitly defines you as a cruiser, i.e. someone who is racing in a category under his (it’s usually a guy) actual ability while still keeping within WKG limit on average and thus won’t get DQ’d by ZP. You know, the guy who sits quitely downwind in the pack and refuses to pull, until the next climb where he suddenly drops you like a half-eaten jambon fromage down the Eiffel Tower.
A TT racer will have a low punch because he tries to keep his power output fairly even throughout the race. Someone who always races very hard and stays at or near threshold for the entire race - the hero type - will also get a low punch rating. Only someone with a HR reserve zone and spare Watts will ever get a high punch rating, i.e. he probably belongs in the next category. You can’t get a high punch rating without reserves, the body doesn’t work like that. So a high punch rating is a mark of shame to me, and a red flag, at least as long as we still have categories defined by past physical performance rather than past race results. I’d avoid races where signups have high punch ratings – even if cruising myself (you wouldn’t want competition if you were cheating).
I know this because I have tried both ends of the stick. And the punch rating quickly adjusts accordingly, trust me.
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My punch rating is currently a mere 99.9%, probably all thanks to the lolcat system putting me in categories where I feel like a total sandbagger…
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I often have a very high punch because I
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Am better sprinter than TT rider, probably because my IRL racing is BMX
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On Zwift mostly race in points events, mostly fastest on segment points
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Don’t understand why I would try to speed up a group (ie. work on the front) in a race unless it was specifically to drop someone else. Other than that, if I’m racing I SHOULD be trying to conserve as much energy as possible.
As far as the calculation, it’s a percentile for the ratio of normalized power to average power, I think.
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Could indicate deliberate sandbagging, could just as well indicate clever race selection, good race tactics, or good ability to recover between efforts.
My high punch racing mostly derives from racing a category higher than I am designated, finishing events at 90% of max HR. So your theory makes no sense.
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You’re light, right?
Ok, fair point. Races with points or primes would indeed increase punch. But not to a cruiser level, not unless those races are not too long and contain many primes. And at any rate, a cruiser with a decent sprint in such a race will beat your punch rating. And win too.
As for your third point, I’ll explain my reasoning. Zwift races are all short compared to RL road race events. They are more akin to crits or CX events but often quite a bit shorter even than that. In RL short events you don’t see people resting. Conserving energy, yes, but that could mean anything. Racers will have a high HR and stay much closer to threshold than in a longer road event and no one really has room for a big Jensie style breakaway in their aerobic system. Why must it be that way? Because competition drives it in that direction. A high pace will benefit the stronger and give less room for sprint crap shoots lost to somewhat weaker riders. So the races almost always tend to drive in that direction. And all of this applies to Zwift races as well. They are almost always hard. Rarely have I sat in a race where the front group goes at a leisurely pace on the second lap. It happens, but it is rare. Now, if the going is hard, then obviously you need to conserve energy, or you’ll get dropped. So you stay out of the wind, but the benefit from doing so is much smaller in Zwift than in RL in a bigger pack, so it still doesn’t leave you much room to “go on a Jensie” later. In any race in cat B-D (A is different) the pace at the front group (excluding the sandbaggers from higher cats that ZP will DQ) will almost always be close to the WKG limit. That’s the competitive end of the race. Now if you truly belong in your designated cat, then you will by necessity be working hard, or you could go harder still and get upgraded. And when working that hard, then getting a high punch rating is not very likely, especially not with sandbaggers and cruisers still in the mix since the rating is a relative measure. The body doesn’t work that way. And our cat system doesn’t work that way.
We have a cat system that defines our cat based on WKG in past races. Your cat is what it is regardless of how hard your efforts were in past races, and you don’t get upgraded from consistently getting on the podium as in RL racing. Someone who doesn’t have to bust their heart to stay with the pack is always going to win, and he can keep doing that in race after race without getting upgraded to a cat where he is forced to work harder. This I have proved over and over by trying both ends of the stick and reporting about it on my blog and in this forum. And this guy, the consistent podium snatcher, is going to have a higher punch than the other guys in the pack. It is a direct consequence. It ties directly into the performance based cat system. In a results based cat system it would be different.
Clever race selection borders on cruising. Well, almost. Anyway, you look carefully at race selection when cruising. Good race tactics? Sure, you avoid pulling like the plague, you don’t bridge unless it makes sense etc. Any half-decent racer already considers such things. But it doesn’t deny the fact that Zwift races are naturally hard. And the fairer they get, the harder they will be, because all else equal, the one who works the hardest will win. Competition will drive the races in that direction, toward toughness. Good ability to recover? Sure, that’s a crucial one. Good recovery is a definite strength and varies from rider to rider. However, the differences between recovery rates, or the consequences for race results thereof rather, will never be as big, especially not in the lower cats, as to explain the wide discrepancies in punch you see on ZP with our stupid cat system. In that context it almost becomes a mere marginal gain, one of many. Plus you normally don’t see elite level recovery rates among people who don’t have elite fitness (think sub-A) - and it would take something like that to account for big discrepancies in punch within a cat. No, the explanation to the really high punch ratings is something else.
Cruising doesn’t have to be deliberate. Someone might think that it feels perfectly normal and fair to avoid going higher than zone 3 in a race except maybe in sprints. After all, it’s not very pleasant to sit in zone 4 for more than a minute and Zwift should be fun, no? And that’s perfectly alright, but such a guy is still hugely advantaged in a race if he is categorized based on how he races. And he will have a high punch.
If your high punch rating comes from racing in a cat above your designated cat, and it truly is above your designated cat, then you mustn’t be doing very well in them, especially not if they give you a high punch. I just can’t see a reasonable, competitive scenario. Maybe someone racing well enough early in short’ish races and then getting dropped (naturally) and then going at a slower and even pace and then maybe a push for fitness’ sake at the end. If you did well in them you would get upgraded in a mere three races at most.
Sorry, but defending the integrity of the punch rating is defending the current cat system, because they are very tightly interlinked.
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Not exactly… Still, under normal circumstances when I’m definitely not sandbagging (racing in A or B with ZP minimum category C), it’s somewhere around 90%, for exactly the same reasons as Craig outlines (except my IRL racing is track). Fully agree that the W/kg category system sucks, but your pet peeve “cruising” can just as well quite simply be a result of smart racing as trying to maintain a less competitive category.
I’m still curious about the punch rating as well, though, especially in terms of which events are considered relevant: how many and by what criteria, what time interval, are “easy” rides excluded, etc.
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Err… hmm, very good point. If group events are included, then anyone could get a high punch, agreed. They weren’t part of the WKG assessment originally as any zwifter who isn’t completely new will know, but they are now. If that has changed with regards to the punch rating too, then I’m definitely fighting ghosts from the past. But if so, then it’s the group events that create the high punch ratings in most cases. With regards to racing I stand by my word. Don’t believe me? Alright. But, blame it on your curiosity or something, try this: Next time you face someone with an unusually high punch rating in a race, do keep an eye on him. How does he race? How does he fare? And look at his race record on ZP. And think critically.
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The punch rating is only affected if your 20 min power for the race/ride is at least 80 % of your best 20 min power.
Its sort of a double edged sword punch rating, because it is one of the most important things required to be competitive on zwift, but in cat b-d it sort of implies a rider that may be too strong for the cat. In cat a/a+ the abilithy to ride a high NP versus avg watts (punch) , is probably the most important attribute of a good zwift racer.
However you cant forget that different physiologi and race knowhow also plays a large role in whether the rider is sandbagging or just a good zwift racer in that cat. I can ride 1 hour with a np quite a lot higher that what i would actually be able to hold in a steady effort for the same duration, so my high punch rate is also a result of racing a way that suits my physiology.
This is due to the NP calculation it self used as a basic for for the punch rating. NP is supposed to estimate the how hard you have to ride a steady wattage to have the same physiological cost and it is calculated using rolling 30 second avg in the fourth power, so shorter efforts like sprints, will affect the calculation a lot and therefore the punch rating as well. So not so much sandbagging as a caluculation that takes a higher account for shorter efforts meaning ceartain types of riders will have a higher punch rating just by the way they ride without doing anything wrong
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It true that most of the weekday races are short, but there are quite a few longer races on the weekend eg KISS 100/80, ZHR Masters and quite a few others (not to mention unofficial “races” such as the Audax etc).
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Actually, I have 92% punch I am C that upgraded last season to B. This season I started WTRL zwift racing league as a B but haven’t upgraded to B yet, so no sandbagging here. If you understand bike racing (hero means really silly in the description B) and in particular Zwift racing (on how to save energy) you can be efficient and know where to rest. Moreover, punch will be high for folks that have strong 30-45s Wkg, not quite the definition of Puncheur in IRL.
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I do understand Zwift racing. And I do know how to be efficient. I had to learn back when I decided to cruise just to show that it is possible. And in that sense I am probably better at being efficient than most, because you have to pick up subtleties others don’t bother with.
Going hard in the start, for example, which everyone and his mother does, is really inefficient racing in the Zwift context since it kicks you up closer to or even into the forbidden zone, which you then have to overcompensate for by going slower than necessary later. It’s not even tit for tat, it’s maths that doesn’t add up (due to the “cubism” of air resistance) and thus a bad proposition. It is, however, often necessary because you lack information (exacerbated by the terrible race rules in Zwift with less than half participants ZP registered, sandbaggers allowed into the race etc etc). You just don’t know where you stand, so you have to tag along with, if not the frontmost group, then at least an early group. And then pay for it later. But if you knew which later group would catch up with legit riders later on in the race, then you could choose an efficient tempo. It’s just that… you don’t know.
But being good at efficiency in Zwift racing really isn’t rocket science. An oversimplification, yes, but mostly it comes down to being the a-hole who keeps sucking wheels, never pulls, and who doesn’t go on stupid escapades that fail anyway. Most racers who aren’t very inexperienced are already quite decent efficiency wise. If you look at most classifications after races, there are rarely big discrepancies in W/kg between riders that cannot be explained away with weight advantages etc.
I note, however, that when I have been cruising my punch rating goes up straight away. Punch rating also usually corresponds closely to the HR distribution histogram over at ZHQ. High punch, low overall load. That is typically the case. So saying that I have a unique physiology that lets me get a high punch rating because I’m so damn good at punching is actually usually the same as saying that I am good at cruising. It’s not about the intent. I don’t care if there is intent. There doesn’t have to be. It’s about the artificial forbidden zone in which you can’t ride in a race without getting DQ’d. And it’s about underutilized capacity. Remove the forbidden zone and capacity won’t be underutilized. It forces people to push themselves. A little Darwinism of the fairer kind.
Unless you’re really the top dog of course. Then you can win without a high effort. But add forced promotion to the system like any normal, decent sport and you can only win that much for a while.
This has nothing to do with people. It ain’t personal. It’s about the system that is whacked. And it shows in many ways, punch being just one of them. But more often than not, if someone is on the very tail of the bell curve in some regard, then it is more than fair to put the accomplishment to scrutiny. Because the most likely scenario is that there is something fishy about it. There is always the upper tail of the bell curve, that’s normal and expected. But a fat tail is not expected. And in a system/rules that is known to be fishy there are alternative explanations to sorting in the tail end than “normal distribution”. “Normal” hides deep in the much of Zwift racing.
Change the system and you will see that I was right.
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The heroes make the races. The cruisers win the races. That’s just racing.
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I’ve been wondering what that Punch number was; thank you.
Based on that, my whopping 36% suggests that I’m that guy who is holding on to the pack for dear life the whole time, and then has nothing left in the tank for that final sprint at the end. And yeah … that’s pretty much much how my (very few) races have gone. And since my CP just went from 3.14 (rounds down to 3.1) up to 3.16 (rounds up to 3.2), I just got “promoted” to the Bs, where I won’t even be able to hang on for dear life anymore. Justification for a couple extra donuts this week, to get that weight back up, and my CP w/kg back down?
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It’s how variable your power can be in races with regards to sprinting power
As I understand it, your category enforcement data is determined from a rolling 60 day period, so if you were literally just promoted to B you will be a B until near the end of May.
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