When I was in my late twenties and riding national elite level, I felt dreadful, and had a blood test. I had the Testosterone level of a pre-pubescent boy.
It’s not abnormal to have low T when you are an endurance athlete. It’s called Exercise-Hypogonadal Male Condition (EHMC).
It’s also totally normal for your testosterone to decline as you age.
Middle aged men using exogenous testosterone to normalise their T-levels so that they can win at sports is no less dishonest than pro cyclists using testosterone gel to ‘normalize’ their levels during a stage race.
Battling the decline is part of the sport.
This idea that it’s ethical to medicate against the natural consequences of ageing or elite sports is daft.
The only purpose of TRT should be treating the small number of men who suffer from actual medical conditions that cause an abnormally low level of testosterone, and their levels should only be increased to the average level of a man of their age.
A 55 year old competitive cyclist who has experienced a natural decline in testosterone levels and performance, who doesn’t have any serious illness affecting his testosterone levels - who uses TRT to raise his levels above what is natural for his age, thereby boosting his performance - is cheating.
Just had a quick look at the results from my 1913 TDZ race last night, breakaway winner not only has dropped from 103 to 97Kg over the last month (not extreme, but still), but last night’s raw Watt power numbers were significantly higher than anything else on zwiftpower.
Like ~20% higher for all intervals.
ZRS plugin says he used power meter for last session.
Single-sided power meter with leg balance changed says hi, I suspect.
He’s now ZRS 385, after a race that was sub 270.
Could very well be significant reason I couldn’t bridge to lead group, he was pulling them away from me in the hilly start to Richmond Rollercoaster.
As always; not a single reply from Zwift on their own forums.
That says enough.
Zwift is a mess and kudos to them: they made it worse over the years. Community self policing with Zwift power and ZP categories wasn’t all that bad in hindsight. That says something.
If I wasn’t doing ZRL with a great group of people I wouldn’t be on Zwift anymore for two years. It’s despite Zwift changes that I’m still here, not thanks to.
Middle aged men using exogenous testosterone to normalise their T-levels so that they can win at sports is no less dishonest than pro cyclists using testosterone gel to ‘normalize’ their levels during a stage race.
[/quote
] That’s really quite a slippery slope accusation. Most middle aged men are not taking TRT to enhance their cycling performance and the doses prescribed do not result in such improvement.
And is middle aged 40-50’s?
What about 60 & 70.
This is an important topic that deserves discussion.
The opinion that all TRT. is jacking these guys up and turning them into linebackers and wrestlers is incorrect.
Testosterone can be abused but we don’t need to be shaming everybody.
Exactly so, @Tim_Camden_C. This thread has run off the rails with these unfounded accusations of doping. I ride with a number older riders who were strong regional and national class racers in their 20’s to 40’s. They still kick younger rider asses (and get kicked by other younger riders) and none of them are abusing T.
@James_Cavell_Amsterd you don’t know anything more than what’s in your own sphere. Saying people beating you are doing this or doing that has no basis in factual discussion and it only serves to dilute your platform.
If someone is doping with T or ‘Roids or EPO, it DOES NOT matter in Zwift. They’re just going to be punched up stairs into the A group. We’re riding in a VIDEO GAME! If someone needs to dope to fulfill their racing aspirations then I’m sorry for them but it really has no effect on me. I just want them in the correct pen…
Anyone who thinks guys in their fifties and sixties can hit professional level power output is wide of the mark.
There is a reason why pros retire in their thirties and why at amateur level the higher categories have younger average age.
There are some really experienced and strong older riders who can ‘hide’ well in the bunch and burn the matches they still have more sparingly at the smartest moments to be competitive at a high level, but hardly anyone over 50 is legit holding an FTP of >5.5 w/kg or pushing 6.5 for 5 minutes. Bear in mind 6.4 -7 is World Tour 5 min output as you’d need a VO2 max around 80. Which simply isn’t credible for a middle aged man.
I’m not saying the strong older riders you know aren’t strong or are abusing TRT, I’m just saying they aren’t doing World Tour power output.
It’s not the first (and probably also not last time) you attack the group of 50 - 60 years old. No evidence, wild accusations, and doping theories. I am >60 - and I bet there are more cheaters in the younger groups.
You (apparently regularly) participate in a race with Zpower enabled - your complaints are pointless.
James is correct that we do see many riders with very good power on Zwift.
Part of this is related to inaccuracies of the trainers, intentional or accidental.
Indoor riding also invites a different kind of athlete, powerful weight lifters that are unconcerned with aerodynamics since there is no real air resistance.
Many of this indoor racers don’t translate to success outdoors but that doesn’t mean they’re cheating.
Indoor is a different discipline just like MTB and Road. Being good at one does mean the same success in the other.
Cheating and doping are real and I’m not sticking my head in the sand about it.
I’m saying, the doses of TRT given to older men are not supra-physiologic and don’t give that big of an advantage BUT I have not reviewed a specific study.
I do know high doses will but most the patients I see are basically continuing to age but have improvements to some important aspects of their lives.
Highly trained elite amateur racers in the 50-60 age range who can still race Cat 1/2 elite should be able to put out pro level 5 minute and 20 minute outputs on fresh legs and in isolation.
What they won’t be able to do is repeat those efforts over and over again or after being forced to respond to multiple shorter, sharper attacks. For elite racers it’s recoverability and repeatability that go with age way faster than pure power.
Zeal is a free for all but when there’s a well known software intermediary between trainer and app where basically anyone can adjust what their trainer reports into Zwift by whatever they want… the whole thing is a free for all.
The sooner you accept this the sooner your mind will be free to get a My Whoosh subscription, use Zwift as a mileage tool, get your racing kicks IRL instead, or whatever you want to do.
I don’t know what you are getting at there but do your research on those folks before making any accusations, if you are doing that. Those guys are the real deal, they work hard and have the results IRL at the top level for many years. You are talking about folks who were at Olympic Games or national champions.
It’s time for you to leave the zeal races and find ones more strictly controlled which will give you more satisfaction.
Maybe have a go at MyWhoosh, who knows you might run into the folks I mentioned - then you can see how fast they really are. That’s honest hard work on their part.
This is nonsense. And it’s hugely disrespectful of those people who have this ability, despite their age.
you need to widen your knowledge and realise there are these damn good riders who can do this. And they do it in real life. It’s genuine.
You pretty much just did, above. You just need to find different races with better controls by the organisers and get on with the business of training the right way and hopefully getting the results.
That’s correct. Outside bike handling comes into it, and confidence of riding in bunches and knowing when to go for a sprint and what gaps are going to disappear. Some people can grasp it without issues, others are just freaked out by it.
There are guys with huge engines from virtual racing who cannot translate to IRL racing because they just aren’t experienced in the close racing in a group, and in fact are even dangerous when they unleash their 1600w at the wrong point and results in a whole lot of people go flying along the road at high speed. I’ve seen that happen on a steady downhill sprint finish (70km/h).
Greg van Avermaet and Greg Henderson are two 40 something ex pros who still race and ride on zwift a lot and put in 8 hour weeks.
Neither of them are hitting >5.5 for 20 minutes and >6.5 for 5 minutes.
Ex Irish professional champ Tommy Evans is 52 and has 5.4 for 20 and 6.2 for 5 minutes.
He does 15-20 hours on the bike each week.
Alex Dowsett ‘only’ had an FTP of 5.06 w/kg in his career, and until he got a job with Astana was racing elite crits in the UK and on Zwift. You can watch his racing videos with power displayed. Nowhere near the numbers of these veterans.
When still a pro in 2020 he did 329w for 19 minutes in a Zwift race, which he said was ‘hard’.
But, I see anonymous 50+ guys smashing 420+ for a similar duration every time I race on Zwift…
absolutely. I tested my old kickr core 1 against a 4iii crank PM, and the core was 3% higher. Got a new core 2 a while later, and that matches the old core and is again 3% higher. Which to believe….
Also seeing a number of elite zwift racers do anything temp and above out of the saddle, which is presumably a terrible habit for IRL racing due to aero losses.
Low cadence, high torque. Wasn’t that causing a lot of issues with trainers a while back causing Zwift to postpone some pro races while manufacturers updated firmware to try and fix it? My guess is this is another exploit that I see all the time now. Keep your cadence low and torque high, ride out of the saddle to sustain high power and exploit the trainer… this is just another way to cheat.
Just done the Korean chase race, 34.6km with just 271m of elevation.
I did 307w (4.0). Only one person out of all 36 finishers did more absolute watts than I did (323)
Out of those who finished within 30s of the winner, the w/kg range was 4.7 to 3.8
Most riders were in the ‘low fours’
On a predominantly flat course, my 307w got me 31st place. The winner averaged 270 and third place just 250.
I spent the whole race drafting in the pack, on the short climbs I found myself moving up the bunch to the front. It was on the flat where I struggled to stay connected.
In the flat part of the final lap, the speed went up massively and I lost contact with 600m to go. Looking at the data, I can see that on the slightly rolling run in to the finish I was riding upper 300s for a few minutes and losing places, while guys riding off the front were doing upper 200s.
It’s not the climbs. It’s the flats.
In the flat sections of advanced Zwift racing, smaller and lighter guys can absolutely put the hurt on bigger, heavier guys who are doing significantly higher absolute watts.
