Yeah, Zwift can do better here, but given this race allows zPower it really is going to be full of spin bikes doing ridiculously wonky power, so really it’s not a race that is focusing on legitimate power efforts. It’s probably best to try and find a race that does not allow zPower entries.
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Hey Mark, I wanted to follow up on your comment of Mag trainers and wind machines etc.
It’s a common belief that you could set them up for any power.
They can be inaccurate but would that inaccuracy be clearly evident with a power meter?
In your comment, was this a power meter used with a trainer as the only power reporting device?
Use of a power meter alone leaves open the possibility of alternating crank length and unusual pedalling technique but that should be obvious and even more so with 2 power devices.
The point I want to try to make is there are 3 types of set ups.
- Setups that are inaccurate and can not be made reliable with any effort- Z Power.
- Setups that are deemed reliable by the manufacturer and difficult to tamper with.
- Set ups that MAY be inaccurate but may also be shown to be capable of accurate and repeatable results.
The number of trainer in group 3 is more than people realize.
I have a friend who felt their Saris H3 was flawed but in ZRL there is a guy who dual records all the races with an H3 and a Quark PM
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Uhhh, how about Peter Milostic, he is 51 and no signs of slowing down. Or Edward “Eddie” Salas… He’s 60 something years old and still damn fast - both of them are genuine, they have the IRL racing victories to prove it. That’s just two to start with from my local area, I know plenty of others.
Look them up.
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Would you say when a power meter is kalibrated reguarly it is just as reliable as a trainer ? After all they are build just for that. And to me they are way less conflicted by the heath inside the trainer.
All I hear is that everyone should use a trainer, but the only reason for that is as far as I know is that a powercrank or pedals can be tempered with by adjusting the length or pedalling technique.
While I than think, why do all the pro’s use them if they are so unreliable.
Training should also be about consistancy so if you have your bike on your trainer but also use that bike for outside rides. Why would you use two different power meters. Isnt using the same all the time way better ?
You might have two different bikes with different power meters because of the group set they have. That’s my case. S5 is a Quarq (on the SRAM Red AXS chainring) while Canyon is a Dura Ace power meter, and the Kickr Bike has Favero pedals as a second option in addition to its own power measurement.
And my ex team Garmin-Sharp Cervelo P5 I stuck on the Tacx Neo 2T to verify against the others. It actually showed slightly higher power in a TT position that I don’t normally do. I think that’s enough.
Pros are using them for IRL power measurement and are not trying to game the system. Sure they can game things, but it just gives them inaccurate power data and doesn’t make them faster up an IRL hill.
If we are talking virtual racing then I wouldn’t trust any of it as we’ve seen the lengths people go to in order to gain advantages. Hacking power, inaccurate weights, etc. I really wonder how some of them would go in a real world race up a hill versus their virtual performances?
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The only 2 reasons for not using PM as solo or primary power source for Zwift that I have heard
- People can do start/stop pedalling and use sticky watts.
- People can change their crank length and therefore their recorded power.
I assume a secondary power source would expose both of these.
I have not attempted to change my crank length so do not know the affects of this.
I apparently am not one of those elite 61 year olds and I find sticky watts too weird and fatiguing but, if I did it while dual recording, there would be a large discrepancy between my power devices.
I use pedals out doors because that’s the only reasonable option I have.
I could use them indoors too but power pedals jump around in their instantaneous readings making workouts difficult to track on screen.
I prefer the steadiness of the trainer and when calibrated to my pedals, I feel confident my power numbers will match indoor and outdoor.
5 sec power is exaggerated with the pedals and blunted (do to spool up) with the trainer.
15 sec and longer are prob ok.
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Actually, I didn’t answer you question/comment.
I think anything that is calibrated regularly or at least compared to a secondary or external source is the best way to check accuracy.
Sure, both could be in error but I think our greatest issue, besides outright cheaters, is people assuming their set up is accurate because that’s what the manufacturer said.
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“Never go to sea with 2 chronometers - take one or three.”
3 comparisons is always best.
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Yeah, that’s a common saying but really not practical and if the two agree, then you’re ok but if not the you got to get creative, like using a friend’s trainer or pedals.
I don’t want anyone to spend money on something they won’t use but many people already have the equipment needed to dual record and they just don’t.
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Take a look at Rick Sorensen: ZwiftPower - Login
He’s over 70 now but he’s still an A group rider and five years ago he was putting down those numbers you’re calling “impossible” for someone over 50. Even now at 71, a 5.3 five minute and a 4.8 twenty minute is extremely solid numbers.
There are others but I’m not going to spend a bunch of time debating this. There plenty of former international class old people capable of putting down big power without cheating.
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I don’t know if they’re inherently inaccurate with a viable power meter but I do know that any time they’re allowed in a race, sh*t goes sideways. You do have it right with regards to the three different types of trainer set ups. There are more in #3 than Zwift is comfortable with to sanction an E-Racing series with prizes and stuff.
Those are damn good numbers! If I’m still riding a bike by that time I’ll be happy.
I’m not sure what exact age he was, but I remember Cedrick Dubois (FRA) from Haute Route Dolomites 2017 put a whole heap of younger riders to shame as well. Very, very fast over the entire 7 days on a tough stages. Tricky conditions too.
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Based on what we know about Masters cycling, especially in the US, it depends on whether or not one regards physician prescribed testosterone replacement therapy as ‘cheating’ or not.
TRT has ruined Masters cycling.
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Not saying it’s impossible to be fast in middle age, just that having 20 something pro values is not likely - although the massive popularity of TRT is potentially changing the rules of the game.
No accusations towards any one individual, just saying the scene is rife with it, and as we know from the EPO era in pro cycling - when the sport has a widespread drug problem, it’s the guys at the top who are most suspicious.
I’m convinced some people are doing this without being totally aware (happened to me).
If you have a pedalling style in races where you ease off intermittently for a second or two, Zwift will give you those free watts. Example, you go to the front and put in a 30 second dig at 500w to drop struggling riders, you then stop pedalling for 5s to drop back into the draft, you’ll get 3 extra seconds at 500. Those 3 seconds could be enough to cause another rider to get dropped.
I gather some trainers (some elite models) have this issue too.
Well, you need to keep things in context.
These masters men are not paid professionals.
Many have lived active lives and as aging has started to affect the quality of their relationships they are looking for answers to maintain the quality of their life.
I’m not sure what the definition of masters is anymore.
I see 50, 60 and 70 year old riders.
Let them use and enjoy their lives
They are not blowing up masters racing.
They are adding a longer chapter to it.
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Well, taking exogenous testosterone is against WADA rules, unless you can prove a documented, legitimate medical necessity, and obtain a TUE. You would (and should) need much more of a decline in T level than what is natural for a middle aged man.
Even with a TUE, athletes on TRT are subject to strict monitoring to ensure testosterone levels do not exceed normal physiological ranges.
Using TRT without an approved TUE is considered a doping violation.
So, these Masters racers who take enough TRT to be able to smash out ‘mid twenties domestic pro’ power are in fact cheating, or abusing a legitimate process for excessive gain.
We are also seeing an emerging link between increasing heart attacks in active middle aged men and TRT.
Honestly, I have both pity and contempt for anyone who is smashing TRT so they can be a 50+ Black A rider on Zwift.
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There are very few people in the world who chose their parents wisely.
I’d say that a good majority of the others on Zwift with those kinds of numbers at that age are not among them.
Masters start at age 35.
Is middle aged 40-50’s?
What do we call 60 yo and 70 yo.
When people claim TRT is blowing up masters racing, who are they talking about?
What are we comparing?
Even with physiologic testosterone levels, there is a steady decrease in muscle mass and VO2 max that is occurring well before the age of 60.
Your not going to give a 60 yo TRT and make him superman. If he was a talented athlete to begin with,he will do well but still, he has lost muscle and VO2 max.
For most TRT users, they are not in sanctioned races so it doesn’t matter and their performance is not really improved
Everyone is saying if they are taking TRT they must be getting a tremendous boost.
Likewise, someone does well, the suscipion flies.
The patients should not be shamed.
I don’t think measuring levels would help much because a patient will see improvements today from the TRT they took last month and today the level is normal or low.
Getting back on topic, Zwift Racing is not plagued by riders on TRT rather it’s dodgey trainers and out right cheating.
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