We need to talk about the ZEAL Advanced Race

Racing
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338 average, at 77kg and you get dropped in a flat race, despite riding in the draft constantly.

But a rider averaging 213(!!!) is not only coming second, but constantly attacking solo off the front. In a flat race, this is impossible. How can this be enough to ride at an average speed of 48km/h?

Each week the number of riders averaging over 5w/kg for the race is in double figures, with a few others getting >6 w/kg for 5 minutes as well.

How likely is this? This is Euro pro power output, yet these are guys in their 40s with jobs and families.

Usually around 1/3 of the participants are using Power Meters, not Smart Trainers. We know how easy it is to manipulate the calibration.

3 weeks ago a 14 year old Zwift Power rider won by doing 7.5w/kg for the race and 9.9 for 5 minutes.

There are now at least two different riders on handbikes, who ride up the side of a bunch doing 48km/h average, then slingshot off the front, then return to back, repeating this throughout the race.

The last two weeks both 1st and 2nd place aren’t on Zwift Power.

The race is seemingly often won by someone doing their first ever Zwift race. Today was no exception.

There are people doing 5+ w/kg for 25 minutes who are finishing outside the top 30.

One of my favourite anonymous middle aged riders with Cancellara wattage did 457 for the race, but was 6s slower than the 2nd place guy doing 213….in a flat race. How?

Is this race basically a microcosm for everything that is wrong with how Zwift works and how some users approach it? It seems as though some users see it as a video game, where ‘cheat mode’ is fine if you want to win and have fun, seemingly without understanding that this is ruining the event for others.

Any thoughts?

One thing I have also noticed is that in the Companion app it is never possible to click on the activity of these ultra suspicious podium riders. it’s always ‘Ooops, unavailable’ even hours after the event. How can this be?

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Height Doping - massive rewards from minimal adjustment
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Stop participating, if it doesn’t bring you joy and you know it’s full of cheaters then why do you continue to expose yourself to it? Zwift isn’t going to do anything to make it fair, that much is clear.

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Contact the event organizer directly and see if they will listen to polite feedback. Some organizers care about fairness, others not so much. Zwift could of course do many things to make it better but the organizer has some tools at their disposal that could be employed now.

If a rider saves their activity as private, you get that “oops” forever.

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Zwift does not care.

I guess that’s the only thought I have.

Your post did a good job of pointing out multiple issues with Zwift racing and all of them are frequently present in the same event.

Zwift does not care.

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It’s nothing like any other race, all those lightweight guys seem to somehow distort the usual Zwift pack dynamics.

It’s got to have the highest average speed of any race on Zwift?

I’m normally around 76-78kg, if If I drop below 300w for a couple of seconds, I’m instantly out the back, yet the lightweight guys who win are only doing 200w or so and drive an insanely high pace.

Personally I do quite enjoy it, as it forces me to do a threshold effort, but I agree, something isn’t quite right!

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Can we start talking about rider heights instead of just saying “lightweight” like us lighter folk are somehow always cheating?

In Zwift, it should be shown on the screen the rider weight and heights, near where the w/kg is shown. Also in the companion app. Hiding these (while still showing them in Zwiftpower) helps facilitate cheating.

I certainly have no advantages at all on any flat course in Zwift, nor downhill for that matter. Everyone is either as fast as me (and can stay with me easily) or quicker. And I get pushed out of the draft all the time by other riders who should themselves be overtaking on the outside (rather than pushing me out of the draft). Everyone ignores that.

Rather than just saying “lightweight” guys, what heights are these folks? 130cm tall? I certainly cannot drive an insanely high pace on my own and I can easily do way, way more than 200 watts average while being 59kg. Perhaps it is because I’m honest with my height. Maybe I need to become shorter. :roll_eyes:

I’m sure there is nothing to stop you using the handbike as well? Seems like they’ve learned some effective tactics.

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Changing pack dynamics to require over taking riders to move up the sides would be a good change.

There would have to be 2 PD formulas because that would be impractical in a Tour de Zwift race with 1000 riders but when the numbers are whittled down to 25-40, it would be more realistic.

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I have the same, I’m doing NP just south of 350, did 96% of my Max HR for 25 minutes and am totally out of puff with 1km to go when yet another massive 250w attack goes off the front.

It’s a flat race and a 1m79 / 77kg rider needs 335 to hang on for dear life, while riders with the physique of children destroy the field with my low zone 2 watts.

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9

Seems zwift have got a bit lost in their own code.

They are the first to admit it’s not a pure racing platform due to verification issues and open to as many power sources as possible, but this seems just wrong and should be addressed

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Zwift were in the wind tunnel a bit over a year ago testing bike frame aerodynamics.

According to the zwiftinsider article they also tested rider CdA and @Eric-Schlange-ZI said he was planning an article about the topic.

As far as I know nothing ever came of it.

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It seems mad how rider size, weight and aero seems to have so much precedence over absolute watts when riding on the flat at high speed.

I recently lost an A class Tempus Fugit TT to a 30kg rider doing 180w.

I was doing 350.

He caught me from 2 minutes behind.

We don’t need wind tunnel testing to know that this is absolute nonsense.

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12

And yet.. whatever screens Zwift does have, can seemingly make mistakes?

ht tps://forums.zwift.com/t/cone-of-shame-and-disqualification/664002

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Yes, this is about the 5th topic you make about this race and we have given you plenty of alternatives where the organizers are more strict about performing, require double recording and absurd powernumbers, but somehow you keep doing these and not the others we point you to …

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14

I don’t know what category you race in, but in A Advanced there are few riders, and most races have very few participants. Plenty have zero riders joining.

The popular ones are unfortunately where the cheats hang out, they seem to want company too.

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15

Been another classic edition today (didn’t take part due to illness)

Handbike guy won with 5.6 w/kg average for 23 minutes.

Third place guy only averaged 214w for the whole race, on Innsbruckring, but Zwift has that 49kg weakling ehad of the 399w of the 4th place finisher (who is legit) This anonymous 49kg lad also did 16 w/kg for the last 15s, which on a w/kg basis puts him in the ‘pro sprinter’ category. World Tour - sign him up!

Anonymous 50+ sticky watts legend just scraped into the top 20 with double the absolute watts of the third place finisher, on a course that is all about power.

Another anonymous PM using / non ZP registered rider hit 5+ for the whole race, but couldn’t make the top ten.

Second place did 10.3 for 1 minute. Here’s what TrainerRoad has to say:

Pro cyclists typically produce between 8.5 W/kg and 10+ W/kg for a 1-minute all-out effort. While top male WorldTour riders may exceed 10 W/kg in fresh, peak conditions, competitive, sustained 1-minute efforts at the end of a hard race are generally in the range of 8-9 W/kg.

So he is at the very upper end of the pro peloton for 1 minute power, despite being at least 30. His PB for one minute during a race is 11. Plenty of pros couldn’t do that as a fresh, rested, one-off effort.

Honestly this race has seemingly become freak show where Zwift’s best cheats take on Zwift’s best legit riders in a bizarre environment where the basic rules of physics don’t apply.

It’s utterly ridiculous that a platform that wants to be taken seriously as a legitimate e-sports option doesn’t do something to stop this.

If you look at the 5 minute power some of these guys are apparently capable of, I do wonder what Zwift estimates their VO2 max to be, and if this estimate is even humanly possible.

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But Zwift isn’t trying to be a legitimate e-sports option for racing, they are a fitness metrics company.

I really do wonder how many Zwift users would consider themselves racers, as compared to those who are just trying to be healthy/fit?

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17

I guess I’m happy those guys are in that race series instead of ZRL.

If we can’t or won’t eliminate them, then we should give them their own place to play.

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This seems like a situation where the metrics are off, which affects everything, not just racing. Speed metrics, power metrics, weight metrics, these are the things that affect race results as well as other activities.

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Tolerating this makes them more like a cycling video game producer, where if you are honest with your dimensions and fall within a certain size/weight range, and use reliable, calibrated equipment, fitness will be a key differential. But, the demands will be very different to IRL racing with much importance to bodysize and weight.

I recently saw a 13 year old rider destroy a Zwift race doing 198w average for 25 mins. 29.5kg, apparently.

The thing is, even at such a high w/g, a 29kg rider doing 198w would be utterly destroyed in a A grade crit IRL.

In Z-world, a mini goes faster on the flat than a BMW 760 because it’s smaller and lighter, despite massively less horsepower.

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Zwift is a video game, and sadly, cheating has always been a part of video games. Zwift does not take a proactive approach to this, because they (probably) have decided that they will lose more users if they start banning cheating, versus the number of users they will lose if they don’t. (Again, fitness vs racers)

There is a difference between cheating and physics. A small rider will have an advantage in some aspects of riding. I was faster on the flats on my recumbent than I was on my “standard” road bike, since I was a “smaller” rider, putting out the same W/Kg, but could not “jump” like a sprinter. But Z-Physics does take that too far.

BTW, your analogy doesn’t really work, my Mini had the same top end as a BMW 760 (155MPH), but it took me over twice as long to get up to 60MPH, sort of like a climber trying to start next to a sprinter.

Yup, there are cheaters out there, which is one of the reasons I don’t race on Zwift (that, and I lost my zeal for racing bikes over a decade ago).

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