In real life he probably would get smashed yeah, and he would like nothing more than racing other kids but unfortunately they’re not too many kids races.
The problem is that last week he did a race in D- category of 30km and he averaged with 4.5w/kg and 153w avg power. Well, because of that one time he got over 150w he should now race in B-cat. He wasn’t even winning in D. That’s not gonna happen. He averaged 195bpm just to ride along, so that’s not even close🤦
Reminder? It’s not a requirement, spoken or unspoken, in any other but a handful of very top races. I mean, this has never even been up for debate 
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I was watching a couple Zwift races on YouTube just now and remembered back to this post. Adam Zimmerman has a recent video winning an A Cat race averaging 242W and 4.2w/kg. He does have excellent race tactics and is one of the most experienced Zwift racers out there. He knows every turn of every course, exactly where to save energy and when to burn a match. He knows the other strong riders, his limitations/strengths and how to apply these on any given course against a wide range of opponent types.
4.2 is low for A Cat and so is the raw power at 242W. The point is that it can be done. Your job is to figure out how to make it happen for you.
The race video:
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his ftp is 5.5 
I understand he is a very high end racer and has an FTP over 5w/kg. It doesn’t matter if he has a 10w/kg, 600W FTP though. My point is that at times an A race can be won with lower end power and w/kg. 242W avg and 4.2w/kg are on the very low end of the A racers. Yet everyone in the forum would complain that it isn’t possible to win with those numbers, that the system isn’t fair for my riding style, the system doesn’t favor me as a light rider, or as a heavy rider, or as a steady state rider, or as a punchy rider, as a sprinter, etc.
The truth is that many, many do not win races and very few do. If 20 people line up it would be very difficult to have a 5% chance of winning. There are probably a couple very experienced riders who hand selected this particular type of course because it fits them well and they know it very well. This greatly reduces your chance below what we would assume is a 1 in 20 (5%) chance. Even if it were 100% equal you still only have a 5% chance of winning.
Race hard, have fun, get a great workout.
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Just add it to the wish list.
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Enforce categories.
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Reset categories so the w/kg span gets more narrow the higher the category. Maybe add a category or 2.
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A performance input. Win and move up.
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A handicap for light/young riders that allows them to compete without unfairly decimating the field.
Someday in the year 2018, forward thinking companies will see the value of such dreams, others…
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If you can push 850W for any length of time, then shouldn’t you be higher than C? At least that’s the feeling I get when I see lower cat riders pushing 5-6+ W/KG. This is not an accusation… I’m new to Zwift - and road biking in general - so just trying to figure it all out. Is it a matter of style? I might be able to replicate your style (although probably not quite that strong), but I choose to try to hang with A, get dropped on the hills, then I end up riding alone for awhile, which is why my W/KG is a bit “artificially” high (lack of drafting).
If I were to concentrate on drafting more, I’d end up a B rider, which seems like where I belong given how I can’t hang with A 90% of the time no matter how I draft/punch/recover.
850W for 30s does not make you an A or B Cat. Remember that which Cat you race is based on 95% of 20 minute power (top 3 avg).
I would agree that it gives punchy riders with good short power an advantage. We may have similar 20 minute power but some riders will have better short power for say 1 minute (or less). So say we both have 280W 20 monute power and I have 850W 30s power but you only have 650W power. Advantage to me, how would you win? You can’t drop me over a long period of time we have similar 20 minute power and I would be happy for you to go to the front and try to break away, I will sit in your draft. Then in the last 1km I have a good more powerful sprint/short power. It’s tough for you.
I just looked and the first highly ranked C Cat rider I clicked on was 944W 30s power. We are all Cat C though because we are all 3.2 max 95% of 20 minute power. He would probably beat me on a flat course where there was a sprint finish but I do not in any way think he should be anywhere but C Cat if he wishes to race there. I would lose because he is better/more fit/ has an ability that I just don’t have. I would need to work on it to beat him or have a strategy that takes away his strength somehow.
The bottom line is that I am ok losing to another legitimate C Cat rider that legitimatly beats me. I give 100% when I race and often that is not enough to win. I don’t think he should move up because his 30s power is too good for the C Cat and that means I won’t beat him.
We all play by the same rules, some will do better within those rules and there’s no way around it. Make new rules, Cats, matchmaking, expected time, results based, etc… doesn’t matter… some will do better than others within the rules.
I think that we expect to have similar results, a reasonable chance at winning, etc but the truth is that it doesn’t work that way. There are many thousands of pro riders who never stand a chance of winning a world tour level race. They ride 20+ hour weeks nearly year round, skip on pizza and beer, weight train, you name it and have literally no hope at all. Yet we expect to be able to win on Zwift and want the rules changed to give us that chance.
For the record I am a strong advocate for a results based system. I believe it will make things more competitive, fun, and yes give a more fair chance to everyone to win. Voice you opinion here but don’t stress too much, race hard, and have fun doing it while getting a great work out!!
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No offense taken, but you’ve missed the point of my original post (from a year ago) completely. The point is not that I can’t be “successful”, ie: podium, win races. I truly don’t care about that.
The point is that the w/kg system actively separates people who would have a great time racing against each other, but they are forced into different, artificial categories, even though they can complete the route in the same time. They should be in the same race! I would like to be able to race people of whatever height, weight, age, shoe size, neck circumference, whatever, if they can race that circuit within a minute or two of me. Racing would be far more fun that way. The w/kg system is vastly inferior to a system based on ability to complete a route in a certain time.
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Even if you could (easily simiulate all the physics accurately) , which they dont ( not bad but still quite far away) the actually point is that this is totally irrelevant to race classification.
Can anyone name a single cycling racing body that uses power and weight values to determine what racing category you are in . I am pretty confident to the point of certainty that there is none.
Racing Categorisation is always done by one of two criteria .
Racing results over a season
Age for masters racing
Why would they do that ? Because the numbers are indisputable , because that is how competitive riding works , the aim is to win,podium or do as well as you can and promotion (and indeed relegation) works on that basis. .
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In an allied point , it is also the case that different affiliations run there own categorisation.
Zwift by taking “ownership” of zwiftpower have broken this link as they are the owners of the race track NOT the owners of the events ( even there own ZRL event)… There was not nearly as much angst about w/kg when it was all run by the zwiftpower team because they were prepared to put time and effort in to smooth out the edges and disputes . What I do agree however was that it had started to become an unsustainable and unscaleable solution .
Assimiliating it , whilst sounding like a great idea , has proved to be quite the opposite .
What Zwift should do is , rather than clamp down even more , open up the data more easily to more organissers to Affiliate better independent classifications for there own event series . That will naturally gravitate things away from the current situation. Zwift can still hold the master information ( and even there own classification but it stops being the ONLY one ).
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From Justin’s original post:
Here’s what I’m thinking: racing is best when there’s a large field of very similar ability riders, because you have to out-think, out-maneuver, out-sprint, to win the race. You have to ride close to your limit to do well, all the time. It’s at its worst when you’re in a cat in which you can’t stay with the lead group in the first half-mile, every race you’re hoping to find a few others similarly dropped and often end up riding alone for long stretches.
Most races are like his first sentence. He is extrapolating from the experience of being blown off C level crits, which don’t suit his power profile, that thus all races are bad, which is inaccurate to the majority of zwift racers. A year into his post, and after reviewing this entire discussion, none of his posts have “hearts” that other people really sympathize or feel this plight.
Secondly: It might seem like the w/kg system should even things out, but it doesn’t do a great job, because a heavier rider putting out the same w/kg as a lighter rider will beat them most of the time, more and more certainly as the weight difference increases.
This too is extrapolating a conclusion from a myopic perspective of crits. Try doing a hilly race, Richmond or even the big climbs. The opposite truth reveals itself, that the lighter riders punish the heavy.
The issues Justin outlines are not fundamental to all races. Extrapolating that a non-explosive rider (see power profile, it’s a true not disparaging remark) entering a unique speciality race (crits) and thus complaining about the whole body of racing from this perspective, is an inaccurate endeavour.
Find races that work for you. Perhaps the Ven-top or others with gentle climbs. Or do what everyone else does when they get their legs ripped off - analyze the results, see where you were dispatched by the peloton, and work on it. Racing is designed to reveal the human distribution and hierarchy, regardless of what is being raced. There are always those who believe the system is broken when they don’t win… but it’s not the case. This is sport, not socialism.
The power of drafting, which is already allowing riders with a very wide power (and weight) range to stay together, is the reason so many races finish in group sprints. If you’re outside even this grouping reality (physics), you need to work on your engine and strategy as others have mentioned.
A’s have the pain of starting with A+'s. This virtually guarantees that at some point they’ll be blown out of the water. I don’t see them lining up to complain. There are lots of Rides not Races if one despises being dropped, that will cater to fitness goals just as well.
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j - it looks like you just ignored my previous post, and simply don’t understand the point I’m making.
OK, fine, you really don’t understand.
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“Racing isn’t broken at all”
Umm, ok
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I would agree if I was a A cat racer. But if you move down the categories it gets more messy and less racing.
this is my biggest motivation to become a A cat racer.
LOL… Both of your quotes are words from someone who has not ridden an event with a number or down category participants who blow up the field in the first five minutes. Consider it like IRL, you’re a Cat 4 racer or a 50+ racer and you enter a race with 40 other riders. You don’t know anybody but it looks fine. Then the gun fires and it turns out 6 of the riders are much faster but you don’t know who is really in your category so you chase your ass off.
One by one, riders get dropped until you can no longer hang on. Turns out those six riders were Cat 2 racers that were 22 years old and they thought it would be fun to show those slow old Cat 4 racers how fast they were and screw up the event for the legitimate Cat 4, 50+ racers.
THAT’S WHAT NEARLY EVERY SINGLE RACE IS LIKE ON ZWIFT for Cat C and D racers. It is entirely effed up. The few times there has been some semblance Category entry enforcement, the races have been much more engaging and realistic at the start. For a while, I was at the pointy end of the C cat and found my self getting hammered at the start of every event; literally I was putting down 3.2w/kg plus with power numbers that were fairly straight to the one minute.
Well, I got upgraded to B and now I’m in the Grupetto of B and I’m getting hammered at the start of every event but at least I know I’m racing with a bunch of others who are also really B’s. Definitely showed me who was putting down the power at the start of those Cat C races.
So, no, J. Suffering, you have no idea what you’re talking about. Obviously you’re an A and the rest of us just need to train harder so we’re all A’s and don’t get pushed around by those down cat riders…
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You are right in some points imho.
I am bottom C, no chance to win (it is like IRL, the podium is too small), but never had a problem with it.
And under normal circumstances I am a polite old man, but this statement makes me crazy:
Thank you to show us (50+) where we belong, you arrogant …
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Called it. 
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And probably one of those bullies who periodically heads over to the Cat C or D pens to push the kids around in their slow races.
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