Time to shelve w/kg as the category determinant

Change your weight to 100kg and you will realize how much that impact your performance. :rofl: :rofl:

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Increasing your effort at your weight should never slow you down on a climb, compared to a heavy rider. Weight is a big part of the algorithm up hills. Iā€™m 97kg and can stay with the lead pack on the flat, comfortable with holding up to 300 watts - first hill more than around 3% and I can drop 20 places in a minute, unless I can crank it up to c 400W. Sure I can gain places on the subsequent downhill, but thatā€™s my recovery time. !
To be fair its same in real life, so no complaints on that one.
What does get to me with the w/kg system is the U12 rider @45kg putting out about 150W on a flat route, but still placing higher than me putting out 300W at 97kg! Its not as simple as hills uses w/kg, and flat use raw power it seems.

The U12 example is not a fault of the categorization (w/kg).
It is more an error of the speed algorithm.
The algorithm is designed to approximate the speed of an adult.
Riders that force the algorithm to be applied to inputs (wt, ht) that was not part of the initial design, will cause inaccurate speeds.
Itā€™s the same as using an unsupported trainer.
Some riders are ā€œunsupportedā€.
They will redesign it.
But note, we want them to revamp the algorithm to make rides more accurate for kids but at the same time, the parents want free or discounted subscriptions for the kids.

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The main problem I experience is how different riding in a big group is irl vs zwift. I think this is due to there being no zwift limitation on riders getting momentum in the field then hitting the front which ups the speed. This effect over and over. Irl racers donā€™t want to be on the front on the flats and itā€™s even hard to get there with center line rules.

I would propose an ā€œintentā€ function selectable by keyboard. If I press ā€œFā€ I allow my rider to hit the front and or go off the front (and drive up the field speed)ā€¦ If I select ā€œBā€ then my rider will auto brake when approaching the front of a group.

This would check the run-away field speeds as most riders would be in ā€œBā€ mode for long flat sections. Riders could go back and forth between modes at will.

Derek

I feel as though ZHQ crit city races arent working at all. Hereā€™s my story on it, I am very new so maybe missing something. Iā€™d probably stop racing on zwift if they made this standard across all races. Heres why;

Today I raced my 5th race (futureworks city crit) and prior to this have never sat on the podium for a finish (my best was 5th). I had good legs and felt like I could win, shortly into the race I got a message saying my power output was too high and it would be dropped. I quickly went backwards and was dropped by the leading group. I am 195 pounds so need to put out big watts on any incline to keep up with the bunch.

This means that I now have to race cat C without ever sitting on the podium for cat D? This means I will just have to sit mid pack for every race and if I ever get close to winning Iā€™ll be handicapped. I propose that if a rider hasnā€™t won a race in a category yet, then they should be allowed to decide whether they are right for the category or not. This makes me feel as though I have to just sit mid pack in every category until I could beat the best in cat A? Winning is the aim of the game right? I feel as though this way doesnā€™t work at all, and probably hinders the larger riders who have no choice but to put out big watts uphill to keep up.

Very interesting read though Justin, and I feel as though they should be putting way more time and effort into solving these problems.

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I share your frustrations but thatā€™s E racing.

Most of us will never win a race in real life and probably never podium either.
That doesnā€™t mean we are in the wrong category.
In your example, a true cat D rider will not get his win until all the stronger riders win and get moved up.
The biggest problem with W/KG system is that it is the SOLE determinant.
I think it is a good starting point but then should take into account performance factors.
Not every C rider will beat every D rider and not every B rider will beat every C rider and everyone does not get to win.
If your power goes up, you move up in cat.
If you win, you should move up.
In my opinion, itā€™s either/or not both.

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do a ftp test, divide by your weight, will give you your hour max w/kg #simple

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Yesterday I finished last in my assigned Cat (A). I would have finished next to last in B. This is fairly typical (last in A, around middle of B) but Iā€™m required to enter A based on W/KG. Itā€™s super frustrating and Iā€™m still trying to make sense of it (I get the formula, it just doesnā€™t apply very well to me). Maybe I should gain some weight?

Try working more on short power, for an A, you have a very low 5 minute power and C level 1 minute power. Another thing is work on drafting and enter events with more riders so you have more people to ride with.

Thanks. Yes, sprinting/uphill/strength. At 48 Iā€™m not sure how much capacity increase I can achieve. Regarding number of riders, I race when it fits my schedule so Iā€™m at the mercy of whatever event is available. I always get dropped on the hills. I use 100% trainer difficulty. I know total power is the same regardless of the setting but I do wonder about the exertion/recovery of 100%.

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Given your profile and weight, this system works against you, for sure, on all course types. I agree with you that itā€™s highly unlikely that at 48 years of age, you will be able to flip around that power profile pyramid (but you can try :slight_smile: ).

Not much to do about it Iā€™m afraid, apart from continuing raising this issue with ZHQā€¦ (and indeed, gain a kilo :wink: nobody will blame you for racing in the B-cat afterwards, Iā€™m sure)

It wonā€™t affect your race experience much, other than slightly altering the way you use some muscle groups. I (and many others with me) race with trainer difficulty set at about 25%, which I find most efficient, btw.

You always have to find your own race and race your own race.
Sometimes that means backing off the pace and let the leaders go so you donā€™t blow up.
I didnā€™t get to race much this past year because of workouts, friend rides and those farmed double XP points.
My ftp is 3.1 ish so I expected to go B anytime, at least I hoped to.
As a B, I already had a goal of beating as many A,B,C,D riders as possible with a particular interest in beating the Cā€™s.
Basically, as a B, I planned to keep ā€œracingā€ the Cā€™s.
I guess there might be changes in the inter race dynamics because some C groups my not work with a lone B.
Maybe Iā€™ll see next year.
Now Iā€™m on the MTB and the trainer is put away.

Just a reminder Zwift E-sport rules state 50% trainer difficulty. I know we are not proā€™s just pointing it out.

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So my 11yo, who always races in D-category, wanted to race today. When we started up in D-category we got a notification that they saw his power output was too high for D-category and risked getting flagged.
So I placed him in C-category, where after 5kmā€¦he got flaggedšŸ¤¬
He rides an elite direto which got recalibrated last week. This is bullocks

Donā€™t do the Crit races when you are a kid, itā€™s broken. Another thing is that for some reason kids are very fast on zwift so that breaks there algorithm. If he wants to race, choose the category by the ZP category and donā€™t enter the Crit city races

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Well, he was in about 20th position when he got flagged, so nothing extraordinary. Isnā€™t too motivating when he rides junior races he races against 40y olds and when he races adult races, he gets flaggedšŸ˜‚. Totally absurd imo. Well, theyā€™re gonna pull this trick only once on mešŸ‘

Well, I did a Crit City B cat race last night and at 20 minutes the leader got the green cone of shame. Fortunately for them (and unfortunately for everyone else) they had enough of a lead on the rest of the pack that they still managed to win the race.

The W/kg system is and always has been broken and the Zwift anti-sandbagging measures are just as useless.

Itā€™s been 6 years since the first ever race on Zwift and 5 years since the first event on ZwiftPower (ZwiftPower -Ā Login). Surely itā€™s time something was done about this nonsense?

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As stated you short power needs work. Donā€™t be fooled by your age there are a lot of very fast 40 and 50 somethings out there. I am toward the top end of C Cat and my best 30s is 852W, 1 min is 571W, 5 min is 339W as a reference and I am 41 years old. Work hard and you can improve short power.

The other question I would ask is how well you are drafting and have an understanding of conserving and being a smart racer. I can Jang with a faster group,npush really hard for 1-2 min to make a faster group out the gate and never once be on the front pushing the pace until I edge them at the finish line. I have even had a race where I was the only C in my group, held onto the Bā€™s and out sprinted a couple, winning C Cat. No hope of that in the Aā€™s but try to make it to the finish with the lead group every race so there is just a chance to podium in the sprint.

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But in real life, an 11 year old would not be anywhere near those guys.
They need to fix the algorithm.
Donā€™t race those races.
Weā€™re glad your son likes to race and we really want to encourage him but itā€™s not fair to the other racers for his speed to be so high.
He should race his category what ever ZP says it should be.
The anti sandbagger system is broken and thatā€™s NOT your sonā€™s fault.

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