it changed since, and i think the basic gist is that zhq haven’t settled on that yet
…but i believe the numbers are taken from 90 days, same as with CE. it’s possible that isn’t set in stone but the first test event coincidentally more or less lined up with my own 90 days numbers expiring
Type 1 danglers are not above the cats limits. Most riders that can finish the race in front and still have a massive sprint should theoretically be able to cat up but the nature of holding wheel prevents that from happening.
Type 1 danglers even when assisted won’t make for an exciting finish since they are almost dead.
Why are you focus in getting better? It is like playing a game and you just need to do what you do well. You play a support hero you probably going to be awful in attacks but focus at what makes you good.
There is no point in glorifying power above 3 min if you are able to destroy the competition with your 15s power.
Great you are amazing at 15 min power but someone can sit on your wheel and destroy you in the last 15s. Then you still suck at the game.
And the standard definition of a TTer is no decent number below 20 minutes? If all you do is TT efforts you’ll never develop a decent sprint. 
I don’t want the scales to be tipped in favor of the sprinters or TTers or any other rider type. But I also don’t want the scales tipped against any of them. This results-based system should be a big improvement over the current CE system. But it’s being intentionally myopic to think that seed scores won’t matter after the system is up and running. So that’s why I want the seed score to be the best initial guess possible without penalizing any particular type of rider. Unfortunately the seed scoring does penalize at least one type of rider.
I race IRL too and short of being selective with my races I don’t get to choose who I race against either. But the category system does that for me. Once someone cats up to a category above me they don’t get to come back down to blow up my races. As it stands now all the “underseeded” no-sprint TTers that catted up will get to drop back into my races after they take their summer break from Zwift racing.
We seem to have wandered off topic. If you beat other racers you’ll move up. How you do it is up to legs, lungs, brains and … treachery. (I stole the word from Fausto Coppi.)
TBH, it remains to be seen how big a part the seed scores that underlie our Race Score will play once most Zwift racers have five qualifying races under their belts. It’s complicated. And which races will qualify?
ZwiftRacing.app disqualifies five different types for good and sufficient reasons.
Since lots of people take the summer off of Zwift (or at least Zwift racing) there will be lots of folks back to zero races come October/November.
Maybe races should fall off after 90 days only as they are replaced with new races. That way the summer breakers will come back right where they left off. And if their fitness has decreased during that time their score will drop according to their new results.
Could do the same thing with folks that have less than five races: old races won’t fall off until you actually have five races completed.
Interesting
I joined a Zwift Insider Tiny Race last Saturday. My group was a surreal mix of former top D racers, C racers, a large majority of B racers and a few A racers. In June, I participated in D category tiny races using pens that were already set based on VO2max and zMAP.
As a good sprinter I was assigned with an absurd Racing Score of 545 which is just a few points lower than Cavendish (591). To make things even more surreal, my 20-minute power is only 3 W/kg, while others in my category got up to 4.5 W/kg.
I managed to finish in the Top 12 since the race was just one lap of Neokyo crit, which takes less than eight minutes. However, I was constantly on my limit working in Z4/Z5 while the big guys were mostly sitting in their upper Z3 or lower Z4, at least their Strava say so.
Despite beating the highest seeded guy and a bunch of strong B guys with higher Zwiftpower | Zwiftracing and even Racing Score, I only received a three-point upgrade for my Top 12 placement.
If the race was longer and more aerobic, I would have been out of the race after ten minutes. This is because the 20-minute power is not considered in the overall calculations at all. From what I have read, this is one of the most frequent complaints.
I do not believe that Racing Score based on 30s and 10m powers will do its job. You should distinguish between races that heavily rely on glycolysis, where top C racers can outperform some of the top B-category racers, and races that are more aerobic, where individuals with a lower ventilatory threshold struggle to keep up with the pack. For the latter you need to include some other component such as 20m power or zFTP.
Fixing the Racing Score goes hand in hand with fixing up the Pack Dynamics. In IRL, I can sit in the bunch at 220W while the guys in the front pull at 340W. Zwift was not designed as a simulator, so you do not feel any real effects of drafting, at least not on the pedals. If I have to pull like an idiot while in the mid of the pack, then it should be included in the Racing Score formulas.
We race IRL under UCI rules based on age categories which take into account VO2max decline/aging. We have nothing like that in Zwift. There was some attempt in Tiny races to use VO2max and zMAP and it seemed to work quite well until it was rolled over by Racing Score.
I really can’t understand why race results over 90 days old should be ignored. There are people who competed in the elite field of the Zwift Games who haven’t touched the platform since. In the hypothetical world where this system had been in place since before then, under the current rules they could dawdle around for 10 minutes and get assigned a racing score in the lowest pen.
Sure, adjust the seed score lower so that the racing score can drop if you’ve lost fitness. But when you return you should be picking up where you left off.
This is it, easy to implement and fair (summer breaker speaking here 
).
That really depends on your age. At mine I race BC masters or BMCR which is made up of E, 1, 2, 3 and 4. So gets blown up regularly
Most people use the platform to gain/maintain/improve fitness levels and power metrics, they do not see it as a game but there are many who do see it as a video game where the only thing that matters in racing is winning
In each race there can be only one winner. In a field greater than one the odds are that some will be disappointed. In a field of 20 or 30 or 40 or 50, possibly several.
Personally I am quite happy to race, do my best, and finish wherever I may. I don’t cry over my finishing position. I am satisfied that a strong effort is good for the body and mind. Winning is a bonus.
Certainly racing is, for me, more interesting than a structured workout. Maybe a training plan would yield better results, but sod that. I’m just trying to be fit and healthy and hopefully enjoy the journey towards a longer and more satisfying life.
There needs to be a structured form, @shooj said it was on its way to me a few days ago, people get so emotional on here.
Oh and interact rather than make a random post here and there, so the forum doesn’t start abusing each other…
sure.
- As a good sprinter I was assigned with an absurd Racing Score of 545 which is just a few points lower than Cavendish (591). To make things even more surreal, my 20-minute power is only 3 W/kg, while others in my category got up to 4.5 W/kg.
Your honest feedback is you think your score is too high. Yet your performed well in a racing using your racing score. What’s the problem, you expect to win?
Your biggest criticism like others is I could win Crits and Tiny races every time I raced and now I can’t. How can we change the seed score so that I still can. I know, lets bring in a metric that I never do (20 min)
The whole point of a results based categorisation system is riders who are habitual winners are forced to race tougher opposition. Just like IRL, you start Cat 4 but if you win enough you become cat 3 and face tougher opposition, dominate that, you become Cat 2 etc.
Racing is for everyone, not the few who figured out how to stay at the top of CE D without having to try harder
Bear in mind that when Cav is on Zwift he’s likely riding no higher than Zone 2.
Consider that those racers you are competing against who have a higher CE category but the same racing score as you almost certainly cannot sprint well at all. Their only hope of beating you is to make you work for the entire race so you either aren’t there at the finish, or are so gassed that you can’t sprint. If those riders had your sprint they would be scored much higher because their 10m power is better. It produces a different dynamic that is more like IRL racing where the route profile has a bigger impact on the results. Imagine the experience of those riders in a typical CE A or B category race. Most of them would be cannon fodder because they can’t sprint, and their sustained power is no better than their peers who can sprint. In a racing score event they have a tool they can use to try to win it. Perhaps they think of this as more fair as well, but in any case it is a zero-sum outcome. For one rider to place better another must place worse.
Something I forgot about until last night was that part of our zwiftpower Zpoints comes from our 90 day race power data.
1min, 5min and 20min pure Watts and W/Kg.
Not sure on the individual points scaling multipliers used, higher for longer time periods.
But it did make me wonder how it would scale into ability, if pure Watts was multiplied by W/Kg for each time duration and then added together, like an extension of Compound Score.
Doesn’t help that I’ve not done a 20min+ race in the last 90 days.
I have clearly stated my points.
Racing Score might be effective for brief glycolytic races, but it may not be suitable for longer aerobic races due to the absence of other components like 20-minute power or zFTP.
In our short race we had 20m power gaps ranging from 2.8W/kg to 4.5W/kg. If such gaps are present in races longer than 10km, most racers will likely have a less enjoyable experience.
In my country and in most EU countries, we do not follow the CAT1/5 system with upgrades. Instead, we have UCI categories determined by age along with an open category. At 52 years old, I compete in Master 50-59. Regardless of my wins or losses, I will remain in my category. I will not be moved up to UCI23 for a more challenging experience against younger riders with VO2max over 65.
I think Zwift’s approach to upgrades is fundamentally flawed because a lot of racers who are upgraded end up either waiting for their rank to reset after 90 days, or taking a break from racing for an extended period, which definitelly does not help Zwift on the monetary level.