Ending up where one consistently performs very poorly and then can’t end up with a score below the seed score.
Though that’s more of a “seed = floor” issue than “starting off overseeded” one.
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I’ve done a couple of the ZRS races, and generally had a decent enough time (despite being too far off the front to have any interest) - but this mostly comes from me checking where I stand in ranking terms from the signups on zr.app - so I can gauge whether my race efforts are putting me in and around where I ought to be (and give me a vague idea of final positions to be aiming for).
Ideally, it would be nice to have some of this information natively available either in the companion app (list signed up riders by ranking for instance), or in game during the event (for instance, in the chat pane before the race starts, have an automated message sent to you with your predicted finish; or some sort of guide against the current position as to whether that’s better/worse than expected), or even in the post-race events screen (“you were predicted 20th, but finished 15th, good job” etc).
A lot of the benefits of ranking were things like this being touted as “every position counts” - but there doesn’t as of yet seem to be much in the way of leveraging that ranking riders shouldn’t mean that everything is all about winning.
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For me it the removal of longer power zones into the calculation and making the 30s value too important.
In the CE form we had only 20m values and that caused problems.
Now that is removed and almost completely replaced by 30s to seed riders. Where it used to be sprinters it will now be w/kg powerhouses that will dominate the races. Still wont make a difference for 90% of the racers but it will be another group that will dominate the races.
But that is just my view on it.
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I was referring more to 20-minute power, which is currently ignored (but shouldn’t be IMO). I used “long power” since I’m not exactly sure which metrics are most pertinent with my score, and anything beyond about 3 minutes for me is mediocre.
I don’t expect that my high 30s power would expire - it’s pretty much spot on with my abilities and unless I completely stop riding on Zwift it won’t go down. In fact, thanks to the last few months of the monthly Zracing series I’ll say that ALL my power numbers are pretty close to maximal efforts.
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Except for anything of 3 minutes?
If all you ever do is Z2 and sprint. Then its a self fulfilling prophecy.
I assume you want 20 minute power included as you know you have never done a 20 minute hard effort and it would drag your seed down to satisfy your own needs to win?
Almost all comments on here are not about improvement or to help to community. It’s about I could win or podium every race I do and now I’m not, therefore ZRS is broken.
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Really? The three races I have done my 600second time is 94-98% of my 90 day best yet no movement on my racing score, my racing score nor my seed score has moved.
I tested this by establishing a new max 30-sec effort (outside of a race) and indeed it recalculated my score. 
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in my Testing , if you have power drop in your Profile, @j4m1eb they make you do ride before it will drop you. i had to do 2km today to drop from 454 points to 444.
We should have really been doing this for some time with all races and TTs, but these Racing Score test events should give all racers within a pen the same frame and wheels.
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I don’t think that’s a fair characterisation of most of what I’ve seen in this thread. There’s a difference between not winning and being uncompetitive in your designated category. ZRS is new, and providing feedback (positive or negative) about how the seeding is working on its first iteration is a relevant comment to make and can lead to improvement.
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Guess you missed the part where I said all my current power stats are pretty close to maximal efforts (which would include 20-minute).
My phenotype is sprinter/puncheur (as confirmed by WKO5/TrainingPeaks) so I can do a few decent 3ish-minute VO2Max efforts and I have a halfway decent long sprint (20-30 sec). But my 10-20 minute (and beyond) power has been pretty consistent over the past few years and it has planted me firmly in the upper 75% of the current C category.
By by creating seed scores that only look at a small slice of riders’ power curves, it’s making the same mistake as the old 20-minute-power categorization system - but just affecting a different subset of riders. I know that race results will supplant seed score over time, but if races fall off your scoring profile after 90 days, seed score will rule again for people who take the summer off of Zwift racing. So it’s actually kind of important to get seed score correct and not just sweep it under the rug by saying it won’t really matter after the system is running.
My comments aren’t specifically just about me. But I’m the only data point that I know all the facts about. I don’t have to win/podium to have fun racing. But I DO need races to be evenly matched enough that I’m not going to be immediately dropped and then I spend the rest of the “race” riding along until the finish. And THAT is what I see happening for lots of people that fit a similar profile as me. So THAT is why I am commenting here - because if Zwift doesn’t hear about people’s negative experiences they may simply assume that the new experience is great for everyone. But so far, it’s NOT a great experience for everyone.
As an aside - you appear to have a similar Racing Score to mine. How have the Zwift Labs races been going for you?
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Good point. Probably no steering or braking, either. Just don’t take my virtual shifting away.
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How many people have actually been immediately dropped?
Is this just a bit of hyperbole?
I don’t mean, soft pedalled to try and prove a point… I mean set a 5min pb and still didn’t hold on.
Just to point out, there’s only 7k from the start of the climb to the finish this week… no one is spending an eternity coming over the line by themselves. 3k is downhill.
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Sprinter/puncheur is the standard Z2 and sprint excuse for no decent number above 3 minutes.
If all you ever do is sit in a sprint you’ll never get better at longer than 3 minute efforts.
All the dem complaints as are made in the Zwift racing.app discord. It’s not fair that I have to race TTers blah blah
I think people will just have to get used to a new style of racing. You know. Where you don’t get to win every race. Or race multiple times a day and expect to podium. Real races are meant to be hard. And guess what not everyone can win.
I race IRL and I’ll never win as there are better riders. I don’t get to start with some other riders just because I can’t win. Or get to change the rules.
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Brilliantly stated.
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i picked up 49 or 50 points on saturday over 4 tiny races and 1 zhq race (that one had 3 entries however), with no significant power adjustments, against probably 13 other people. i even sat the last tiny race out to take a look at how that affects things
it seems to me that if you pick up a lot of wins you get moved up pretty fast regardless of your physical size
EXACTLY this^^. Rather than standard drop the odd person with low absolute power at start, on punches or caught napping etc before a long z2 sit in then a bunch sprint for the line, things get mixed up a bit.
Now becomes how can I maximise my finishing position based on how I’m feeling, course profile, who is racing around me, now race develops, the risks/opportunities i chose/do not chose to take.
MUCH more exciting surely no matter where you are in the field?
I think people are up in arms as the previous status quo flipped around on some courses. There are some tweaks to the base score to do as things potentially flipped too far other way to light riders, but where I see this is going is MUCH better.
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Nothing new, I’m afraid. From Zwift Supports article on [Shudder] Category Enforcement:
" To determine your minimum pace groups, we analyze your power data from every activity you do in Zwift—whether you save the ride or not—over the previous 90 days. With that, we calculate your power profile which includes metrics such as zFTP, zMAP, and their respective power-to-weight ratios (watts/kg), which account for your weight. The choice is then yours if you want to race in the lowest group available to you, or if you want to challenge yourself more and join a higher pace group. The lowest pace group you can join is calculated differently for open races and women’s only races:"
cp30 and cp600 are already in there. The open question is whether we’re looking at one-effort maximums or an average of the top five, which I’ve heard but not from Zwift.
There needs to be WiKi but I’m not volunteering.
Does anyone know how far back in history Zwift is pulling CP from?
I raced in a non-zwift labs C race (Casse Pattes) the other night, the winner was a very recent B (last month) new C, and his zwift race score (which must be based on seed score given he hasn’t raced a zwift labs race) was lower than mine despite him being a B rider for the past 3 years and an A rider before that.
Yeah. When ZRS launched last week, this is what I got by clicking the Info box:
" i Your Zwift Racing Score is the average of your 5 best race results over the last 90 days. See your activities here. If you haven’t finished 5 races during this time then your score will also factor in your best 5 minute power output from all your activities on Zwift.
I think that “your best 5 minute power” was an error. Still: 90 days.
I just clicked to check and it bounces me to the ZRS FAQs, which aren’t as clear.