Honestly guys, the title of this thread is Racing Score updates… there have been none as usual… what are you even arguing for… This whole thread is a Zwift marketing tick box, why do you honestly bother?
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i’m a fan of due process, which means ticking boxes and arguing in circles about wkg
172.5mm circles or… how big are we thinking?
I was thinking the same Mick; it’s been how long now with zero response from Zwift from really any direction. I’m not even seeing much talk from James on facebook nor the Labs companion club about … any of it.
Maybe ZHQ is too focused on the HUD update slated…
James said that the team who is working on this ZRS is also working on a lot of other things.
So it isnt that there is one team working on ZRS only.
But it has been a while since we had any feedback or comments or updates from Zwift indeed.
And now I wonder why I am even still surprised by that since it is Zwift we are talking about.
i’m a 172.5 guy since that’s basically the default. works for nairo, but i am not nairo
i guess if you have a specific question about some aspect of it you can ping him somewhere. i assume zhq got tired of everyone’s bs 700 posts ago, including but not limited to mine. tim is around, maybe.
Very well stated and exactly right.
You want a variety of phenotypes racing together in a way that is dynamic and interesting. Since there is only one score, there are going to be a variety of different players with a 500 ZRS.
The trick is ensuring that the climbers have difficulty keeping up on the flats and the sprinters have trouble keeping up on the hills.
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Stay tuned… 
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Exactly so. Hence, until such time as Zwift creates more available pens for use, or events are split to multiple signups in order to get more pens, there will always be a struggle.
Likewise, there will continue to be struggle if event organizers only use the 5 pens they have, but insist on trying to invite and cover every ability level across the spectrum. You have pretty much explained the futility in trying to do so.
Event Organizers should specialize and target a subset of the overall spectrum, and ZHQ calendar management should play a more active roll ensuring that targeted low, med, and/or high level events exist.
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Or you don’t. You just don’t bother too much with it. KISS principle.
Give us a sloppy and largely unfair initial seeding into some cat or other. Who cares? Then, after some races, those who place really well get moved up because their score increases due to high placings. Those who do really badly get demoted into a kinder pen. And those who do so-so stay in place.
Then you leave the rest to individual race selection. You want a fair chance to place well? Pick a race that suits you. But that might also be the race that sends you into a higher cat. So it’s a double-edged sword. A sword that strikes rather fairly in both directions.
Yes, but… but…
Scenario 1: Someone tries to tank their score to get demoted so that they can monopolize the podium again?
Conclusion: Let them!
At least they are not perpetually winning like today, because they will have to spend half their time racing in a higher cat. Problem at least half-solved. Better than today.
Scenario 2: Someone tries to cruise their races with a bit of fingerspitzgefühl, as they say in Germany?
Conclusion: Let them!
If they cruise for the win, they get promoted unlike today. Problem solved. If they cruise to not-quite-win, then the podium is up for grabs. Problem solved too.
Scenario 3: Heavy dudes push high Watts so that skinny dudes can’t keep up.
Conclusion: Let them!
Sure, it sucks to be skinny on the mostly flat races in Zwift. But heavies with big Watts will get promoted, and then the skinnies can race amongst themselves and get a fair chance to win. Problem solved.
People need to stop focusing on the initial seeding parameters! (And i really hope ZHQ does too.) Just put something together. Like what we already have now, it’s fine. It doesn’t have to be perfect. Rather, it is the scoring of results, in races with varying profiles and attendance, that needs to be tweaked well in order to get a reasonably stable and enjoyable system. Spend some time there. Then adjust as you go if problems arise. It needs to be released.
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Agree. I have been advocating for specialized “elite” events a few times a day for the highest score bracket. This will allow the other events to be more competitive ranges.
Zwift could do the same at the lower range with “beginner” events but that group generally races far less than elites do
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Good stuff here. It’s true that, even with the current formula, the score will work itself out if:
- the player completes enough races
- the score is allowed to go below seed
The only caveat is that enough accuracy in seed is needed to ensure the players who only do a race or two every 90 days (majority) aren’t either dominating the field or getting blown out the back.
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Yes, but again, is this chicken or the egg question. Do lower range riders not race because they don’t want to, or because beginners (eg sub 2.0 wkg) know they’ll get crushed in events that have/had a standard CE D-cat setup with high end about 2.7wkg?
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But that’s not what’s happening for many of us. Every pen I’ve been in has me paired with riders with over a full W/kg more 20min and raw 20min power similar to my 5min. There’s no way I’m dropping them on the flats and the moment we hit a couple-minute-long climb I’m dropped like a sack of potatoes. I normally can hang pretty well on Watopia Hilly Reverse, but stage 2 Punchy Power I finished alone over a minute back. On stage 3 (Rooftop Rendezvouz) I lasted 4km before the entire field rode off. Kept pushing hard with the goal of simply not getting lapped, but I still finished dead last almost 5 minutes behind.
If this is what racing will be like for me on courses that aren’t even all that hilly I will stop racing, because why would I want to “race” when it means literally riding alone for 80% of the race.
Dynamic and interesting is the key there. But the high 30s folks are not even in the game because we’re dropped on even small climbs. And because an over-emphasized 30s power number has pushed our seed score too high we can’t even drop down to a level where racing can be “dynamic and interesting”.
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Neither. It’s all about marketing, and overflowing event calendars; where too many choices exist, and not enough time to figure out which to do when there’s 6 races going on every other hour, and signup counts are all over the place; so folks are more likely to avoid joining events entirely, and just take the “easy” path, and do a Robo partner ride for an hour or whatever.
You turn The Big Spin rides into races; and boy oh boy would you see the pens fill out.
And this is why, like I stressed the other day, you can’t have a system where the initial seeding continues to contaminate the rank score beyond the first few races. The basic running system should be strictly results-based. The only purpose of the initial seeding should be to put you in a starting cat that doesn’t ruin your or everyone else’s experience, like Tim says:
But the two should be separated.
That way a guy like you would/could eventually end up in a cat where he struggles a bit with the climbs and where the climbers struggle a bit against him in the sprint. A balance.
After that the only thing we need is better pack dynamics. Then we have sports-like racing in Zwift.
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I’ve said it dozens of times over the years, wiping a person’s history with a rolling 90-day window is nonsensical. I can’t understand the aversion to making it a year, with individual appeals to ZHQ for exceptions to allow for serious injuries.
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Especially if you leave late-join on and let people drop in with less than a km to go
At least they will get an acurate 30s value 
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Imagine that as an elimination race 
Point remains though; it’s definitely part of the issue.
I don’t want to point fingers, but James said he was going to start looking at removing lackluster events… it needs to happen, as it is among a bigger issue than anyone seems willing to admit.