Pack Dynamics 3.0 Update [October 2021]

Rode the Pack Sub 2.0 ride on London’s Pretzel (Got DQ’d but I knew that was gonna happen with those guys) so I could try out PD3.0 in different packs. There are usually three or four packs of 10-20 miscreants each who ride off the front so I could switch bikes between each pack and see how it responds to the changes. I can say for me, PD3.0 is the single biggest improvement, on the order of “End ride and start another without logging off” change, I’ve experienced on Zwift.

The lack of lateral movement, how the avatar has some idea of what a correct line is through a corner, and most of all, the reduction in sticky draft, all make this a HUGE improvement. It so much more like Real Life that it seems like an entirely different game. If anything, I felt like I was slower because of how steady everyone was within the pack.

When riders in front went over a hill, you didn’t have to hit the 15 second power to hang, we all just stick together as a bunch and power down.

I followed the Pack ride with a freeride on Makuri Farmland Loop with steering. Not really enough Zwifters to get an idea of how steering works in a group but it was still better than anything we’ve had before.

Kudos to ZHQ for the upgrade. This is absolutely the best present ever! Thank you.

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@shooj,

My SZR Endurance ride in London was on the whole okay today, unless you were part of my sweep team (I’m waiting for a full report back, but it sounded challenging). I had a nice blob around me too.

Apologies for not reading the previous posts my issues may have been mentioned already.

The fun really began on the after party, basically 9 of us all had similar issues and the group was blown apart by the end:
unable to make U turns
indicated directions were not the ones we ended up going at a junction
speed limiter of 24kph kicked in for at least 3 of us on Fox or Box declines then stayed in place to the end of the ride.

Needed to ride to 162km today, 10km to go I was FORCED up Box Hill for a second time, not exactly what I needed :rofl:

All this is available on my livestream if needed.

Paul, in case you missed it: Can't U-Turn [October 2021] [1.18.0]

Heard it was an Alpe issue, but thanks.

Hi Paul,
Discussion of the u-turn bug was focussed on the AdZ because people were being stopped from vEvesting by the issue and generally make their attempts on the Alpe.

Unfortunately, it looks like we won’t see a bug fix for that being published until around 10 Nov. Until then, avoid attempting any u-turns after completing any route in the list of badge-winning routes (even if you have the badge already).

Luckily, the u-turn bug seems to be unrelated to the Pack Dynamics 3.0.

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18 posts were split to a new topic: Pack Dynamics 3.0 Update [November 2021]

@Stian_Lersveen can confirm I see the same behavior with my Kickr Bike tonight during an After Party ride in Watopia. When you get pushed to the edge of the road the avatar seems to want to go back in the road but other rides in the way and you end up at an angle for a bit before it sorts itself out.

Also seems that with steering (even if not using) you get set to the outside of the group more than others without steering.

@Roule_Thoune @Stian_Lersveen @D_Watson We might want to pair in ANT+ with which steering is completely disabled, IE: does not exist, and see if that makes a difference from where there is a possibility of steering with BLE. Really, I’m fairly lit and grasping at straws but that’s all I got… Dang that was good Scotch this evening…

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Did the ZHR masters this morning, same route as last weekend. Same time for less effort but that’s possibly due to the slightly larger group size. Much smoother ride, very easy to position the avatar and much less sticky draft. There was still the odd occasion where riders swung across the lane but it seemed less common. Supertuck on descents seemed more stable and reliable, I never once thought I was slipping out of the draft which has happened in the old version. Could be just coincidence or confirmation bias.

I think TTTers will really like it though it might take a week or two to get used to. Please roll out to all worlds ASAP, I don’t want the old version!

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That’s pretty much the same feedback I got from the ZHR Weekend Group Ride - smoother, more stable, easier to stay in the pack, not getting pushed sideways out of the draft, same speed for less effort, etc.

I’m with you - please roll it out to all worlds! :+1:

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@Mark_Crane_TOG_G_65y yea I’ve been putting that off cause IIRC you can’t use the top right hood button to activate power ups if connected via ANT+. It only works in BLE

There are several of these inexplicable inconsistencies, such as the Wattbike gear indicator only working over Bluetooth but controllable only working over ANT+.

?? Atom user here…
What do you mean?

This is on Windows, which IIRC you don’t use.

Windows Bluetooth is the version I don’t use… Windows Ant+ I reluctantly still use every now and then. You can’t move from erg to free ride to erg whilst in a workout on Apple TV so is needed.

Ant+ on windows is pretty good, I just suffer massively from drop outs which im not convinced is all ‘noise’ from other devices.

We’re off topic, point was just that if a device or hardware feature is supported, it should be supported over every protocol and platform.

Has anybody raced with PD3 yet? Interested to know how different it is, particularly in a chase pack. Do you need people actively working to chase back a break? Does it feel like you can take advantage of a slower moving pack and attempt a breakaway? Is it easier / same / harder to benefit from a peloton and hold position at the back of a group?

The cosmetics are drastically improved, with much of the sickening side to side motion removed and riders moving around each other more smoothly, but the update is mostly window dressing that disguses a lot of the major mechanical issues with the draft rather than fixing them. Sticky draft appears to have been mostly fixed but that’s about it in terms of improvements to practical mechanics.

The pack speeds are still far too high when there are no riders pulling hard at the front. 30 riders at 3 W/kg should not be catching 1 rider at 5 W/kg, or even 4W/kg for that matter. This is a major issue that has been unaddressed for years and really blights racing on the platform, drastically reducing tactical options and teamwork.

The emphasis on power:weight over pure power over is still far too great, with light riders travelling far too quickly on flat roads relative to large riders putting out much more power. The height effect on speed is also greatly overstated.

There are still a lot of issues with the draft disappearing, particularly at high speeds where it should be strong.
The most consistent case of this occurs anywhere where the gradient changes from an uphill into a downhill, riders in the front accelerate unrealistically quickly, and the draft pretty much disappears for riders in the back section of a group, even if tight on a wheel, just at the point when the draft should increase dramatically as the speed goes up and the gradient goes down. You have 80+kg riders having to push 4-5W/kg down a hill to match the front who have eased up at 2-3 W/kg, even though they are all on a wheel.

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ZHR masters was a race. I thought it was pretty similar tactically, perhaps slightly easier to cycle defensively in a small group going up Box Hill as I didn’t get stickied off the leaders and could more easily move up to tail them. One guy went off the front on the flat and no-one bothered to chase (not my age cat!). I’d say it’s easier to do what you want to do, whether that means chasing or not. Less of an automatic washing machine effect at the front of a pack, and also less blocking from marginally slower riders. I wouldn’t say it’s radically different however, just generally more pleasant.

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Is this likely to.be switched on in Yorkshire by Tuesday’s ZRL races?

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