For me it’s the “racing strategy” that I get to enjoy being in the pack that is not in the back of the pack. Along with the fact that I’m 57, I’m not getting faster, just trying to hang on. There was a day I could have raced well in B’s, those days are long gone. We each enjoy different aspects of Zwift.
For me Racing is not training, when racing it is about beating the guy next to me. I train to race not race to train.
That’s good analysis, Andy. I love charts and data.
So is it sandbagging or standard cycling tactics/practice?
Let’s say Zwift did actually move to a results-based system. Wouldn’t the difference just be shuffling of Cat letters/colors? Wouldn’t the race dynamic be the same with people lumping together because of the desire to draft?
Maybe Zwift could give us the option to turn off the Cats if we want to. Colors/letters are masked, sort of like choosing different colored socks. I’d be less frustrated if I didn’t see a bunch of lower cat riders pull away every race. How those riders can keep up with A riders and stay in B is a mystery.
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For me the tactics play a role as well, because I’m not fast enough to run with the crowd.
In my first C race (with an FTP around 2.5-2.6wkg) I did what I was used to in D, start like a maniac :), and then after the first few 100m hang on for dear life. I ended up in the 2nd group (and later 3th group after a break in the latter part of the race). I did all I could to not get dropped (and it was close a few times). In the end I still managed to do some kind of sprint, and behold I beat the people in my group, while having an avg power 0.3-0.5wkg lower. No sandbagging with an avg hr of 156, with a max of 173 (which were both new “pb’s”).
I also thought I would be left in the dust, but I wasn’t, which pleased me more than the final result. Maybe next time will be better (or worse), but I’ll not be riding D again. The challenge of being able to (just about) hang with a group which in essence is a bit too fast for me, is enough for me right now.
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That will be awesome. Can’t wait for that day. 
No: because then it will be a more level playing field, you will know when someone does a break the he/she is in the correct can’t and you will chase (if you have the legs).
People draft and sit in the bunch to save energy but if the bunch goes to slow they will start attacking, so there is a fin balance. The we get to climbs where drafting wont play a big role so it is all out racing on a climb to drop as many riders the was just drafting. The aim is to make the bunch as lean and fast as possible, so no carrying dead wood. Even if you are not the front group.
There are many races that does not have categories or they start all together. They are less fun like running events. They don’t have any tactic apart from the B’s hang on the A’s as long as possible the C’s hang on the B’s and the D’s to the C’s.
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When I am training I pull up my workout calendar and do what is scheduled, be it a Z2 day or crushing Th or VO2 max workout. A race is where you express your fitness and use tactics, but I do enough workouts as is and don’t use my races as training. In fact I only really race once a month lately because I have been so laser focused on the training.
I believe that the most fit rider who is getting the hardest workout will not win without tactics and a real understanding of the race. This frustrates many. Really think about how someone else with less power and less w/kg won when you see it happen. It was not an accident, it is hard to do, and it is a skill… What is dangerous is when the fittest rider is also the smartest one out there who has many tools available to win. Can punch hard 2 minute efforts, TT solo for 20 minutes, and punches a devastating 15-20s sprint. Rare to have all of those but when you do several things well it is hard to drop them and they win more often than they should.
The point is would you rather be the guy that works incredibly hard the whole race and is stupid about it, or the guy that works hard only when he has to, at critical times when selections are made, finding the right side of gaps/breakaways, and is incredibly smart about it?
Drafting and when possible team tactics make this all possible and can become incredibly complex. Add in sprint points, KOM points, etc to a race format and now you add several layers of complexity because now there are riders with different motivations, not everyone is looking to win the stage or overall GC of a series/stage race. Have a teammate who’s sole job is to push the pace is a break and make others work hard while you sit in… that changes things a lot. Not working for the final sprint and only chasing that polka dot jersey makes it a different race.
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All this from a video game!!
I don’t seem to train the same year to year or even month to month.
Sometimes more racing sometimes no racing.
I need to get more structured but then holidays, warm days and lazy days happen.
I’m lucky that I haven’t been sick for at least 30 years.
I think I’m a little confused as to what a results-based system would really look like. Would there still be A, B, C, etc.?.. because if so, then I don’t see how the race dynamic would change. Just some folks would have a different letter.
Then again, I might be overestimating how much time I actually spend riding alone. I’m going to start paying closer attention to that.
Great things to think about, Vincent. It’s a complex sport, no doubt, and many sports are 90% training and 10% actual competition. I’m trying to incorporate the training (e.g. focus on the hills, or consider when to draft) into the races because I find that more fun despite the limitations/flaws of the system.
O yes there will still be different starting pens for different abilities. But currently you have lots of people just watching that w/kg upper limit and they race so that they don’t exceed it. So they just hang with the front doing lower HR and only work hard on the climbs and sprints. Also the current system is basically weight divisions.
And then you just get those that are A riders but they enter the B cat so they make the race faster than it should and the sandbaggers like that because they can just hang in the draft.
Not of that will happen in result based races. Because winners will be upgraded so if you sandbag you don’t get to win and if you win you move up.
I am sure races will be a lot slower in a result based system where everyone is in the correct pen and they can play tactics.
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I’ll consider all the above, thank you.
Wouldn’t this be simply be considered tactics? Push on hills (not much sprinting except at the end?) and recover on the flats?
I have seen plenty of fast B riders pulling other riders along. If your trainer is not especially accurate, then you can easily be doing this without even knowing it.
I’ve wondered a bit about trainer accuracy. If my trainer is off by just 1.5% one way, and your trainer is off 1.5% the other way, that’s 3% total, which equates to 1:48 in a 60-minute event. Seems at least a little significant.
Yes it can be tactics or Sandbagging. It is hard to spot. The thing is the sandbagger has “unlimited power” because he is racing against slower riders.
This should not be a issue in any category but A and A+. We get graded on what Zwift see if you are a D IRL rider but have a generous trainer then you will have to ride in B Zwift cat. That rider will still be all out to keep up and be competitive.
As long as the trainer is consistent.
We are not using Zwift to measure our out door performance we use Zwift to measure our indoor performance.
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I’ve noticed that too. In my few (3) races since being promoted to B I’ve noticed the spread of weights is a lot smaller than C was and most riders seem to be 65-80kg and very few over that.
If all you are interested in is racing then I can see the argument of training and getting better to improve in your class. The issue for me is that this is a hobby to me, I’m not into cycling only for racing and I don’t want to spend every time on the bike either in a race or a training session. I’m probably close to plateauing for my FTP and I’m fine with that. I like to do a race maybe once a week, but if I’m always at the bottom of B then it will end up being less often. Then due to the seasonality of the sport I’ll probably quit Zwift in the summer to ride outside and next winter is a perfect time to evaluate other platforms. At the moment I love Zwift for the challenges of the different route badges and the occasional race, but I’ve almost done all the route badges and if I’m stuck at the bottom of cat B I may not return next winter.
This is not a direct answer to your problem however.
I have had two failed attempts to race in the correct category. Today I used the companion app to select the event and the correct category, in my case D. When It came to the starting line I was sitting along side all the A category riders, and i was classified as an A rider. Can anyone tell me what I’m doing wrong?
If you race the mass start road races, you will never be alone.
You will be with all the other riders with a W/KG of 3.2.
Some will be B and some will be C.
You will have fun no matter where you place.
Oddly, I’ve noticed a growing trend for some riders to do this to an extreme level; they’ll ride at a high w/kg on their own, but when they reach a group they’ll slow down massively to join the pace of the group, only to blitz a sprint or the finish.
It’s really, really odd - as if they value ‘winning’ more than putting the effort in.
Today, in a 3R race, there were several riders pumping out 4.0 - 4.3 w/kg quite steadily, easily pumping out 7.3+ on the hills and in sprints, but then dropping back to 2.5 and sitting in the back B/Cs.
It’s like, if you’re capable of pumping out 4.0 as standard and walloping the power on the climbs, what do you gain from sitting in a group and riding at what must be recovery pace for you? Is the feeling of ‘winning’ relative to others that important, vs actually testing yourself?
Very sad.
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Looking at the 3R Sand&Sequoias race at 0715 PST, there were over 20 riders out of category in the C group. I almost rode this event but decided I needed to not blow chunks this morning in prep for the weekend. Had I joined and looked at the start list in ZP before the start I might’ve asked in the pen, “Why are there 22 A&B riders here this morning? Are you all planning on using this event as a recovery ride? Or are you planning on schooling the little kids in the C group?”
I think the best (or worst, depending on your point of view) way to look at these sandbaggers is they’re bullies. They’re the bigger kids pushing around the littler kids in the schoolyard. I can’t think of another reason for it.
I’ve ridden that race a few times and I can just manage to hang with the second group of the sandbaggers. The first time, I thought I must really suck being 20th after the first time up Titans but then when we finished, the sandbaggers were eliminated in ZP and I was 4th or something.
The trouble is, the vast majority of the C riders can’t and they end up riding in groups of twos and threes instead of having a real race with the rest of their peers. This is why there need to be limits on who rides in what group in races. Five strong B riders can totally foul up the event for 30 C riders.
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I think there should be more non categorized races.
Everyone is in E.
I think the TDZ was good with everyone just going at the best and limited by their ability.
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Plain and simple. people should be blocked from signing up for a lower Cat. Would be easy for Zwift to do, Laziness is the only reason I can think of for it not being done. We’ll have other options in the future for online riding, so maybe competition will bring about change. While I enjoy Zwift, I’d gladly change if someone else came along and used logic.
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I’d be fine with that, even with no other changes. I wouldn’t know the people pulling away from me are in a lower Cat and that I finished in the middle of the lower Cat. Ignorance can be bliss. Even a simple option that allows the user to toggle/hide Cat colors/letters would be helpful. Join the proper Cat, but the Cat icon goes away once you’re on the start line.
I think there’s a way to search for “non-categorized races” here:
Events I don’t see the exact filter, but I think it’s in there. If the timing/frequency of such events fits your schedule is another issue. Hence the desire to hide the Cat icons.
Can anyone help please, did my first race today and went through the ZP registration but I dont appear in the ZP results, against my profile the race is there but has a WKG, I picked cat C as it appeared to align with my FTP but this was a short race so pushed hard, looks like I had similar W/KG to those at the top of cat C.
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