James, points taken…. Plus, the behaviour also mirrors the normal process used for Sportive rides. 
I ride with pace partner only for a month, in group D. I really love them as they are !!! There are two of them in group D and they seems a bit different in difficulty even the W/Kg is the same, which is cool.
I think there should even be a 3rd pace partner by category, one steady pace, and 2 others with more variation, so everyone could find the one best for their workout. I have no problem to be in zone 2 for 1h30 - 2h00, with the pace partner in group D. They don’t go really harder in hills, and when they go a bit harder it’s not even long enough to raise the HR out of zone, and it’s less boring.
But maybe it’s different with most advanced group (C,B,A) ?
James, you are somewhat of a fool to say “Pace Partners are perfect”. If they were perfect, there wouldn’t be this thread. There wouldn’t be people who agree with the poster as I do.
There are clearly 2 different reasons why people join pace partners. I like to join a pace partner to make recovery rides more interesting. I don’t want to be surging up a hill. I don’t want to have to surge or sprint to get back onto the train. Kind of defeats the purpose of a recover ride.
And don’t be so arrogant to say it’s perfect. There are many many things that are are from perfect with Zwift that people “tolerate”. Just because people use pace partners, doesn’t mean they can’t be improved.
There’s clearly demand for both types. So just implement it. It’s not hard.
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Sarcasm can get completely lost in the forum.
Oooh. How to win friends and influence people. 
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I haven’t been here very long, but every time I read someone asking/talking about how easy it is to make a given change and why can’t that particular change get made, it’s so easy and what else do the programmers have to do each day…
…I’m reminded that there are threads proclaiming how terribly distracting moving trees are and how this problem must be fixed immediately or Zwift is unusable. And there are dozens of ‘terribly important problems’ like that at any given moment.
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This is really arrogant.
And this thread had exactly 7 votes, far from “clearly demand”.
Have a nice weekend!
Potentially you could have two types, the constant pace pace partner (that does reduce power downhill) and another that rides more dynamically.
Maybe that will keep both sides happy.
Implementing changes depends normally on developer and testing capacity. On a production environment you can’t just change things right away. You have to go through the power level environments to keep everything in sync and to test.
I have been cycling for three years.I use Zwift as part of a rehab program for panhypopituitarism and dysautonomia. As a result of my diagnoses, my exertional capacity is relatively low, I deal with muscle weakness and chronic fatigue. I hated the dumb indoor trainers my therapist recommended. A friend recommended Zwift as an alternative. Thanks to Zwift I am now an avid cyclist. In my option Zwift is the perfect tool for graded e er use therapy.
have been back indoors for about a month. In the past I had tried PP 3-4 times and found the experience to be lacking. Three weeks ago I decided to ride with one of the updated PP. At this point, I have to force myself to do a free ride. I am finding that I can ride longer and climb more at a higher average watts with a dynamic PP than during a free ride. The PP also help me focus on how to be a more efficient cyclist. Given my physical challenges my approach to exercise has to be graded. What I would like to see are smaller jumps between the D-level PPs.
Keep up the good work!
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James, this is a little off-topic, I know. My apologies for this, but I think the others may be interested.
Right now, ideally, my Pace Partner would be around 2 W/kg, placing me between Miguel’s and Maria’s groups. I am 1 cm shorter than the pace partners and about 12 kg lighter (depending on the day), so I have to carefully judge where the advertised routes will be difficult for me.
I usually err on the side of caution and opt for Miguel’s group - but, as I inferred earlier, I find it extremely difficult to get anything like a stable pace (I actually got shelled on one of the flat Makuri Islands sections yesterday, and found myself 40 seconds off the back - I had to claw my way back solo; aided by the hills!).
I actually find it easier to achieve a roughly stable pace in real group rides right now.
What often catches me is that the pace partner seems to make odd speed changes for no apparent reason (e.g. suddenly speeding up as we progress across Fuego Flats, or the Makuri Islands countryside - no gradient changes; maybe it’s a sprint coming up?).
This week, I was looking at pushing up a bit, so I took a proper look at Maria’s daily offerings. This week, she has been doing Volcano Flat at 35 kph, and Temples and Towers at 30 kph. The advertised pace has remained the same, but during the last three days her advertised power has progressively increased from 2.3 W/kg to 2.5 W/kg. Is this a normal change? In contrast, I don’t think Miguel’s advertised power has changed (but I haven’t followed him so closeley).
Last time I rode with Maria, she was doing Big Foot Hills at 34 kph and 2.2 W/kg. That was, of course, a different (and longer) route.
Is there anything you can offer to help me make sense of it?
Many Thanks,
Peter C.
I think this is the Robo Partners gaining from group draft? I did an 85km ride with Bernie last week. I’m 74.1kg and yet my average w/kg was about 10% higher than the figure shown for Bernie. I’d expected any variations on the route would have averaged out over the 8 or so laps so was surprised at the difference.
Colin, thanks for your reply.
I agree that group draft might be causing it. However, in the cases I’m citing, Miguel and I were both next to each other, solidly in the middle of the pack. All of a sudden, he shot off to the front of the group, for no apparent reason! The group obviously resonded and the rubber band effect started all over again…
Personally, because of the weight and height differences, I only really expect to make gains on the climbs. I usually find that I’m about 0.2-0.3 W/kg higher than the advertised output over the course of a 90-120 minute ride.
Yours does seem to be a whopping difference! Is there much of a height difference between you and the pace partners? I agree that I wouldn’t expect too much difference due to weight.
The other thing that may be causing a difference is where you normally sit in the pack. The draft effect is biggest right in the middle of the group, so if you tend to lead (or follow) the pack, you will get less of it.
Finally, by pure chance, I once got picked up by Bernie’s group when I was out doing a solo effort with the TT bike (which can’t draft)… Bizarrely, that felt quite comfortable!
My solution is to turn off the trainer control in Zwift and use the Wahoo(my trainer) app to set the erg watts. When going uphill I hit up 10watts and then back off 10 going downhill. I rode 55 miles Friday this way and the time flies when you are in a group. The drafting speed make you feel proud of the workout. Without the dynamic on I always rode off the front and then getting back the group is hard to time and requires a surge. Now if I get dropped off the back I instantly hit up 100watts and catch back up quickly, then drop back down.
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I think you can end up with some quicker riders going off the front, then the group chases them - the pace partner is in the draft and gets towed along too, then if you aren’t watching you are dropped.
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In my experience riding with a RoboPacer w/ dynamic pacing is effectively steady-state. As noted by others, most of the routes are flat now or with short climbs. Route selection should allow you to pick the steadiest option possible. Could it be “steadier”? Sure. But I can always just ride around in “erg mode” for the steadiest option. I can also join “rubberband” rides if I want to stay in a group but ride at my desired output.
As a practical matter, learning how to navigate the RP group in a way to smooth out the uphills could actually be viewed as a technique-development opportunity. What if you moved to the front of the group and “lagged” the climbs from the front to the back of the group? (for the bigger groups, obviously) This is a skill worth developing that is completely applicable IRL.
I have also observed that Zwift pack-riding technique can have a big impact on your effort pattern. Exploring/feeling how the draft works and actively trying to minimize the surges you make to change position will go a long way towards “smoothing” out your power.
My RP rides are typically 1.01 - 1.03 VI and HR doesn’t vary more than a couple beats. In other words, very steady. As a coach, I can definitively say there is no scientific or experiential data to support the concept that “extremely” steady is better than “basically” steady. I think this should remove any reliance on training theory as a basis for the “most” steady option. As such, it is really just a personal preference.
Of course, it is simply not possible for Zwift to accommodate every preference out there. I have plenty of individual “wish list” items, but they would probably be of little interest to most others. I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect Zwift to be built to my specifications. Further, I for one would not want to navigate through a significantly more complex Home Screen because Zwift tried to accommodate too many preferences.
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Riding with the Yumi pace partner this morning the group pace was much more steady. I didn’t have to keep doing small sprints to stay with the group and in certain parts of Tempus (right after the banner) the speeds weren’t hitting 47km/h like they usually do.
What I could also see is that the front of the pack weren’t pushing 3.2-3.5w/kg. It was a much easier ride than usual.
Regardless of the output of the RP, yours should be lower (if in the group). The only normal scenario where it would be the same is if the route was entirely uphill (and steep).
Last week I rode with Genie on Watopia Flat Route for over an hour and my average was 3.02 wkg. Genie averages 3.6 wkg. Today I rode with Jacques on the Watopia Flat Route and averaged 2.92 wkg, Jacques averages 3.2 wkg.
Also, I suspect you could ride steady at the highest output the RP achieves on the route (uphill watts) and never get dropped and just pull the group around on the flats. Voila, steady-state with the RP.
My vote is inclusion.
How hard is it to add a couple of steady pace bots at the most popular ranges?
Pace partner rides have just moved further towards IRL group rides. The positive aspects and the negative aspects. Sharing a non surging endurance group ride is one of the major benefits of Zwift.
It’s a shame few understand the physiology of why it’s so valuable.
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I wonder if this still holds true if you’re riding a mountain bike … 
That’s a bit presumptuous. Perhaps people* understand just fine, but prefer to use workouts for their steady-state Z2 rides?
*it me
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