Feature Request: Bring back static pace bots please

That’s fair enough, and is probably one of the explanations I expected - the other being too many PPs to manage. :wink: My suggestion was to use the naming scheme to try and make it clear, but again I can appreciate this still introduces possible confusion.

I don’t remember it being defined so clearly in the past. My mistake if I’ve missed it.

The only real change was that the name of the PP started with the same leter as their category. There was nothing to differentiate whether they were static or dynamic.

It still happens though. Was with Coco Friday and somewhere along the route (I forget where), about 75% of the group rode off the front on a climb and I only saw stragglers drop back. I think people have just adjusted how much they can push on a hill.

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Yep, I know. I think the downhills are often worse.

It isn’t perfect, but it is a lot better than it was. I don’t think I can fully eliminate this without getting exceptionally (and very complicated) creative with the setup, eg +20% for 2 minutes and then +10% afterwards, but I think this will negatively impact people who are already on their limit.

I think in the main it is much better and about right, but some routes, especially when there are rollers, struggle more.

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Sorry, by ‘it’ I meant the reasoning behind not offering a choice of styles long-term. When it was changed the discussion was always about how dynamic was fundamentally better than static (not in question). I don’t recall it being explained why ZHQ considered static AND dynamic options couldn’t co-exist, giving full choice to users to pick whichever they preferred.

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I personally prefer the static pacing as I’m on a dumb trainer with a power meter so I get no physical feedback when on a climb but I get why people prefer the dynamic pacing. I would also vote for the option to have both but agree that the UI needs work before that should be considered.

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Zwift are very aware that their physics model isn’t exactly the same as riding outside. It’s been written on these forums in the past that they have no intention of changing it.

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…and thinking that you have to stay in zone 2 (or whatever) for the whole ride is pretty much what I meant with doing prescribed workouts to the last decimal point.

As far as I can remember, I have so far only done one (hour-long) ride with the new bots and my zones looked like this, pretty much business as usual for a zone 2 ride for me. (Variability index a whopping 1.03, for outdoor base rides in local rolling terrain my variability index is more like 1.30 and I see no problem whatever with that.)

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I think the weight of the Pace Partners is often overlooked also now they all weigh 75kg that’s nearly 20kg heavier than myself which without dynamic pacing is a challenge on descents using 100% trainer difficulty. I understand from Zwift’s point of view that you can’t please everyone but surely it’s not that difficult to either have Bots with differing weights or having Bots in Watopia on dynamic pacing while in Makuri Island they are using fixed pacing with a description clearly showing which pacing they are using.

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The pace partners are still being dropped uphill despite the increased pace they do uphill.

If the pace partner does 4.2w/kg on the hill after LAX then people do 5w/kg or more. Defeats the point and then it ends up in a huge downhill sprint when everyone tries to avoid being dropped. Those who are light end up getting dropped anyway.

The pace partners groups that are smaller don’t have as much of this effect.

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Dynamic pacing overshoots for faster robots…

I’m a little late to this conversation but I just want to pipe in an again reiterate my nuanced opinion — which I also voiced several times during the dynamic pacing testing phase — that I think dynamic pacing works great, with the intended effect, in <3.0 bots. It’s natural to ride a little harder when the grade increases, and the slower bots keep up with the vibe of the group way better now.

But above 3.0, the interaction of draft going down with grade going up already has a substantial impact on effort required to maintain the pace, the size of this effect increases with pace. And this is without introducing dynamic pacing into the mix, which now multiplies the effect.

Another way of saying this is that the difference in power needed to ride in the draft versus ride on the front gets higher as the SPEED increases but lower as GRADE increases. So at higher levels of power the difference between power needed to draft in the flat or draft on a climb is much higher.

Dynamic pacing was already a feature with the faster bots, and amplifying it with extra pace on the climbs is overkill.

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I guess I will add, to temper my opinion about dynamic pacing for faster bots, is that there are now so many more options for routes and robots that I can almost always find a bot that does the type of ride I’m aiming for, and sometimes I don’t mind doing a hilly ride with a faster bot and knowing I’m really going to have to push it on the climbs.

So cheers to all the variety!

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I think the Pace Partners would look better and more user-friendly in the UI if they were listed similar to the free ride courses, the thumbnails add nothing

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D.A, are your group rides statically paced? The majority of group rides I’ve done go harder up hill, and ease off the power down hill.

Group rides I see tend to have the ride leaders getting cranky with people taking off uphill and putting the electric fence up because nobody respects the requests from the ride leader to slow down.

Some of the best rides at the moment are Jacques and Genie on Tempus Fugit. The pace is relatively steady and good for longer rides.

I don’t have the ability to blast uphill at the moment due to my injuries but sitting at 3.2w/kg for an hour or so is quite okay.

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D.A. I’m not against dynamic pacing per-se, but I take your point entirely.

James (from Zwift) takes the view that steady state riding should be done as a workout, but that misses the point entirely. All workouts (ERG mode or otherwise) remove all the gradients completely, so you have no road feel to work with - mucking about with the road speeds, to compensate, does not solve this. The old static pacing replicated the situation you would have if you were riding in Z2 in real life. Hills come and go, and you have to deal with them. If Zwift were to follow James’ suggestion properly, they would offer “no ERG mode” and “with all gradients in-place” as workout options. Try riding the magic tunnel out of London, or Titan’s Grove, in workout mode - and you’ll see what I mean. The old pacer bot model gave you the opportunity to do steady state workouts, with proper road feel - and enjoy some company too.

As a lightweight male rider (~62kg), you would think the new dynamic pacing model would help me out - not a chance! If I’m going to get dropped it will be somewhere like Titan’s Grove, and it will ALWAYS be on a downhill section! In real life, Sportive groups often freewheel down hills, so the pace bots would have to drop a lot more than they do, to replicate this. The assumption must be that we’re all racing (all the time)!

Off topic a little, but why do actual group rides publish positions anyway? In real life, if I do an Audax ride, my finishing time and position would not be published - only the fact that I completed the ride in the specified time window. If group rides were more like that, I suspect they would be less attractive to “flyers” (I know these are often bounced nowadays, but they are still disruptive).

A little off-topic again, I know, but I agree that Zwift does seem think it’s all about going out and trying to “smash it” every ride. My understanding of training theories is that, for most athletes, this is exactly what you SHOULDN’T be doing. The new “ghosts” are a great example of this - every time I start a KOM, my ghost shoots off and tries to entice me to chase it. If I’m attempting a breakthrough - great. Any other time, “I’m doing a Z2 ride, so you’re on your own mate!” I know people like the ghosts, and they do have their place, but it seems to be another example of how the Zwift mindset works (and, in many cases, they’re correct). For me, I would like to be able to choose to toggle mine on or off, on a per ride basis.

Back to the topic - I’m not sure if it would be realistic for Zwift to offer pace bots with static and dynamic pacing as options. Keeping the groups together, or offering twice as many groups, would seem to be a logistical nightmare.

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Then you’ll be glad to know that you can switch them on or off at whim from the in-ride settings menu.

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Thanks David, I hadn’t found that toggle yet (iPad). I’ve found it now and turned it off.

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Right down the bottom. :+1:

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They don’t all do this - it’s an option for each ride. I personally prefer it as I think it’s good to be able to communicate a) as a ride leader where you are in the field and b) with other riders nearby - great group around p56 etc.

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