To be fair, nobody at the bottom of any cat is having much fun - bottom of A cat is probably the worst since there is no reasonable upper limit to how strong an A cat rider can be. In general static categories will result in people manipulating their score to get into a cat below where they should be, I do think they should look into doing some races with dynamic categories to avoid strict categorizations and easy sandbagging.
Middle of A cat is also tough, as you’re up against guys with (legit or otherwise) pro level power.
Also, if you are heavier (say 75-85kg) you’re having to burn 600 calories per half hour in flat races, to keep up with lighter riders who are given a flat terrain advantage so the platform is inclusive to people outside the typical (and pretty narrow) weight range for advanced cyclists.
But even though the inclusivity apparently also gives heavier riders a slight advantage v IRL on the climbs, don’t even think that you can match a 60kg rider who can do 6w/kg for 5 minutes when you are 78 and can do 5.3.
But on the flat, he can hang in a 48kph bunch doing 280, while you can get dropped doing 340.
And if you do the multi cat races, B and C sprinters can sit on your wheel while you and the other A riders attack each other, then they beat you in the sprint and you lose lots of points….
I’m sorry but what?
Proof please and not just baseless anecdotes - but actual numbers and video of what you claim has happened. Because I’m light and that is NOT my experience. And you better believe I know how to ride (IRL too).
Those NYC escalators up the 19% are also the opposite of what you claim, same with the endlessly flat routes with a total lack of anything close to HC.
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I’m with Chris on this one. I have no idea where you’re getting this information @James_Cavell_Amsterd. I’ve been riding IRL for over 50 years and on Zwift for nearly 6 and I’ve never experienced having a “terrain advantage” on the flats even though I’m 67kg. I have some advantage on the longer climbs but because we’re pen’d by w/kg weight doesn’t matter as much in Zwift as it does IRL. Near as I can tell, there’s a pretty substantial advantage to being able to put down pure watts on the flats over just w/kg numbers. I’ve never dropped a big guy on a flat route. Ever.
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As much as we all would like to have racing improved on Zwift, it clearly is NOT a ZHQ company goal.
Just look around and you’ll see:
a) ZRS is mess. The scoring system makes no sense! On top of that, they still haven’t figure out CAT boundaries that would make racing more fair. Zwift Racing is still using the Double-Range CAT from last year.
b) Zwift Elite racing. Gone! Echelon Racing on MyWhoosh
c) Country Nationals (Canada Cycling, USA Cyling, etc…) all gone to MyWhoosh
d) UCI eWorlds gone to MyWhoosh. This is prob the only one that $$$ was more the reason than racing support, but gone anyway.
e) ZHQ bought Zwiftpower and hasn’t improved it since.
f) Community racing also has been dismantled by the flood of ZHQ Races and Events (ZRancing, Unlock, Spin….)
not sure there is a silver lining at the end of this…
My 2c
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67kg is not light for an elite cyclist.
I race in A/690 and it simply isn’t realistic to see 55kg riders bossing flat races pushing 280w while 80kg riders smashing 360 struggle not to get dropped. My regular race is the Zeal Japan race, it’s usually totally flat. Check out the absolute watts of the best riders there…..very low, as Japanese riders are often very light.
there’s a pretty substantial advantage to being able to put down pure watts on the flats over just w/kg numbers.
I recently lost a flat Tempus Fugit TT to a 45kg rider doing 250w.
I was doing 350 at 77.5.
Sure his w/kg is higher, but his absolute power is 75% of mine, and the race is totally flat, with us both on TT bikes.
In a Zwift flat TT, Joe Rujano doing 240w beats Fabien Cancellara doing 400w, apparently.
Perhaps it isn’t so much a weight issue, but a height / draft issue, but there is definitely some tinkering to ensure lighter riders are competitive on the flat.
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That’s not an unrealistic advantage to light riders on the flat issue. That’s an unrealistic power output for a 99lb rider issue. Probably combined with inputting a very small height.
Easy peasy, anyone can make themselves whatever level of fast they want to.
Welcome to Zwift, right?
here is some data for you guys… the 65kg rider wins by a lot (I bet they are short too)
maybe it is height that is the real issue on Zwift?
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maybe it is height that is the real issue on Zwift?
Which is ridiculous.
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It is not ridiculous, it makes a difference - look once more at the thread @Mike_Rowe1 linked, I did some calculations. If the difference can be so big is the question, but it depends on more variables (bike weight, hands on drops/tops, …).
So it’s not that light riders are too fast for heavier ones, it’s that people are putting in likely dodgy inaccurate heights and using the loopholes in the game engine.
Sigh… This is one of the things I’ve been railing against for ages along with those miracle weight losses and gains from day to day.
A few years ago I could have found you a 54kg rider punching 330 watts. All real - he was one of the top young riders in my old cycling club and not only dished out punishment on Zwift, but did so frequently in real life criterium races in A grade (yes, he knew how to ride and race real bikes). He also raced for a team in Europe IRL.
Unfortunately real life things got in the way and he got out of racing (career, etc).
e) ZHQ bought Zwiftpower and hasn’t improved it since.
They took it over because the original devs couldn’t afford to keep the lights on and Zwift decided to keep it operational. Don’t think they ever intended or stated they would improve it.
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I’m not saying that these athletes don’t exist. They do.
My point is that IRL flat races, absolute power matters.
In Zwift, it seems to matter far less than height and weight.
Prove that less weight on its own matters on flat courses in Zwift.
And let’s forget about people setting their heights to something unrealistic like 130cm.
It’s pretty self evident. Eric has done all sorts of speed tests to give you the data.
This one is for different weights at the same power. The lighter one goes significantly faster.
That’s not what was being said here though as far as I’m aware.
Certainly not at the same w/kg, the lighter rider is stuffed on any flat course.
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Yes, and that speed test has been done too.
It’s not raw watts, it’s not w/kg. It’s somewhere in between, and closer to w/kg than raw watts due to how CdA is calculated. With height also being a very significant factor.
As the gradient increases, it gets closer to w/kg too. But never to the point that the same w/kg is the same speed, as the gradient is never vertical.
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It’s not just absolute power output. IRL aero is also a hugely significant factor at elite racing speeds. On Zwift height and weight go into the aero calculation rather than how aero a person can ride. Gaming the system with height and weight is stupid easy and rife.
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Sure, but how much does it matter in the middle a peloton as opposed to riding alone or in a small group where you catch more wind?
It seems to me that smaller / lighter riders seem to get way more benefit from the draft in Zwift than IRL
Part of it is obviously that Zwift doesn’t have wind. Crosswinds and tailwinds are often bad news for lighter, smaller riders.
And they are sometimes good news for those smaller, lighter riders who know how to handle a bike, versus some of those folk with a big engine and a howitzer sprint effort.
If you are going to start on about all that stuff, then Zwift needs accurate steering, braking (you can lock the brakes up, skid, etc) and the possibility of collisions. When it rains in Zwift, make the roads slippery, so you have to do everything more carefully, etc. Basically all the stuff that goes with real life riding. And while I’m thinking about it, the skill to do a sprint properly and not end up with multiple people on the ground.
Are you up for that? Anyone else?
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