The C bot in Watopia (not Makuri) changes the pace depending on the terrain. When on flat roads the C bot is 2.5 w/kg, only on the up hill does it go to 2.8. On the flats in the draft, I usually can average around 2.1 or 2.2 w/kg (depends on your weight, if lighter then it will likely be a bit more than me).
Don’t be discouraged about being in C cat for races, stick with it and you will soon improve to be at the pointy end of the race. Have you tried any training plans to help build your fitness?
I’m sorry (not really) but this is absolute illogical nonsense. The CP metric doesn’t bump them up a cat, it correctly categorises them, as it does anyone with a rubbish sprint. It’s also not a fixed rule, there are plenty of older riders with excellent sprints. So now they should be in lower categories ruining races for those properly assigned?
I don’t know if you are playing devil’s advocate or you’ve lost the plot, but if it’s the former, you’re not doing a very good job because the point is rubbish - weight is part of the algorithm, age isn’t. There are many reasons for a flat power curve, age could be a contributor but it is not a fixed rule that applies to all of a certain age, and even if it did, it’s still completely irrelevant within the context of category enforcement and critical power.
I think in general the thought here is that for category definitions, whether the whole curve (or more of it anyway) should be considered for cat assignments. Back to Ian’s example, per James he’s in Cat B because he had a 20 min 3.3 wkg performance which is evidently just at the threshold, yet his best 5min performance is only 3.6wkg. That certainly seems lower than the (vast?) majority of B Cat riders, no?
If shorter duration wkgs are so important in Zwift race performance, then why is this overlooked? consider an add of some “AND 2min W/kg>X” or something for each cat’s qualification?
Now you’re touching on a more salient point than the age stuff. Should very high shorter duration power force an upgrade?
Answer: it does. That’s the whole point of the W’ element of the calculation - the ability to work above critical power.
Whether that threshold is set too high is a valid concern, but if we get to a point where race organisers can set the thresholds, as hinted at in the roadmap post, then that point is covered.
Yes, it has moved in the right direction, but does that mean it can no longer be improved upon? Of course it can, I hope ZHQ is keeping an open mind to that.
I had “that chat” earlier today and the concensus is that we’re unlikely to make “light rider tweaks” until we introduce results based categorisation. It feels like a significant amount of work that we would rather save for that, if needed.
What if CP and short duration power was a combined factor? A CP that is good enough to hang on to the front of the category and a short duration power good enough to win the sprint, could bump the rider up. A rider with this profile will ofte place high, but will not be bumped up.
a rider with that profile almost always wins. a lot of the current top 50 Bs are still eligible to race B in the category enforcement system… but that’s fine, they have every right to belong there. they just happen to have a power profile that suits zwift racing and probably a lot of game knowledge too. category enforcement isn’t and probably shouldn’t decide who gets to win or not… it should just do it’s job and sort people into a suitable category
I don’t see how that works in practice. Are you saying, as an example, if you can sprint above 1500w for 5 seconds, you CP only needs to be 3.8w/kg instead of 4 to be cat A?
You get in to a really complex quagmire which doesn’t really serve any purpose.
what do you think constitutes a good result? i won the extremely prestigious “long island cranx race” a few weeks ago. i was the only person in my category in it, though.
As normal, James is struggling beyond seeing his own opinion…
There is nuance to the discussion, it seems to edge towards sprint to enable the win… that wasn’t the point made originally… it was being able to be part of the race as the start is to strong and the rider can’t hang on.
The idea of CE is to allow fair racing, it’s not fair racing if the ride goes up the road in the first 2 mins and that rider can’t hang on…
If we are saying that this is just one of the faults of CE and can’t be fixed until result based ranking is introduced then so be it.
I’ve been a fairly vocal supported of CE unlike some in this thread who threw a hissy when it was released, but let’s not pretend it’s perfect, and there are faults with it.
Sorry, I’m not getting it. Can you explain in simple terms why this makes no sense? If an on-the-edge rider is bumped up due to stellar short term power, why isn’t a rider with horrible short term power bumped down? It seems whatever complaining there has been is always from bumped up riders, but in the vein of being blown out the back in the first few minutes of a race, which speaks to a typical race’s gangbuster start.
