I assume you are talking about zFTP (which is not CP by the way). The recent changes made to zFTP were essentially to try and correct the cases where a user would have non maximal short duration efforts that would increase the value too much. So basically we did some changes to try and improve the accuracy of the estimation regardless of category enforcement.
Other than that I can guarantee you than there were no changes made to the default category limits. I can even tell you that the last changes to the limits were made on the 13th of December 2022.
More recently it also became available for event organizers to request custom limits, so in those events we have no responsibility, except making sure that the limits are as requested.
Yes, James shared that case with me the other day. Essentially that user has a very high 5 min. power compared to his 20-30 min., basically a strong anaerobic engine which drops his zFTP.
Perhaps we need to lower the zMAP limits?
But its not a 1 off is it⌠Go look at any of Zwiftpower top ranked B and it there plain to see - Hell Dejan shared some examples above.
Looking at the zMap limits would probably be good - Whether its done in isolation, or against the bell curve of users as also mentioned above would need to be for you to review as you have the full data set.
It needs an entire overhaul, the CE \ CP \ zFTP \ zMAP experiment has been a sticky plaster that is failing. So many of the big events are moving away from it should have set alarm bells ringing.
Also to add, that user has 4.4wkg for 30minsâŚHow is that still considered a B rider? Id genuinely like an answer how that falls into the remit of B.
I have played with the numbers and found that if you calculate zFTP starting at 5 min then you get more reliable numbers. We already have other metrics that look at the short duration.
Did you check what happened after this change? How many riders dropped a category, how many riders were upgraded? I know of many riders who dropped down a category, and I donât know any who were upgraded when the calculation changed. If thatâs reflected in the data, it could have had the effect of depleting A.
yes, this is exactly what has been said across the board for the last few months.
A strong anaerobic engine relegates you rather than promotes you. Itâs the wrong way round. zFTP should not bother considering the smaller durations, and the zMAP threshold needs to be lower.
You raise a very good point. I see time and time again so many similar comments of why X with a Y w/kg FTP is not a B or C, etc. What does it make that having a 4.1w/kg FTP is correct for being in B but not in A or vice versa?
I think this is the legacy from the original ZP categories that are almost taken as a religion.
So picking up my earlier comment, letâs say that an A rider with a 4.2 or 4.1 w/kg FTP will have to race in the same category as other riders with FTPs close to 5.5 to 6 w/kg, how would that rider feel?
My point is, this is like a bed sheet that is too small, you pull from one side and you uncover the other side.
Category enforcement is not a perfect system, specially when you have (or should) take into account different courses, race duration, different abilities and try to balance all that out with 4 or 5 categories. It is however better than what we had before, which was⌠nothing.
With that being said the focus currently is on scoring/ranking based categories which is well underway.
No-one is disagreeing with this point⌠itâs just that the changes have made the A pool smaller, which has an impact on far more people in B than it does in A. Itâs a balancing act, but the balance is worse than it used to be before.
Couple that with the fact that high short duration power (which correlates, generally, with Zwift success) is downgrading riders rather than upgrading them, and itâs a bit of a dogâs dinner.
The proper answer of course is getting away from static categories, but Zwift have been very hesitant to do that. To use your bed sheet analogy, Zwift have made their bed⌠now they should lie in it.
The negative consequences of raising the threshold to become a pen A rider in the modified Category Enforcement system using a 40min zFTP doesnât stop at pen B.
The range of ability in the male riders in pens C and D is huge under this 40min zFTP system and god help you if you get a zMAP promotion!
I think itâs been covered, but the A cat should be at the back of queue when compared to D, C, & B for fixing as itâs a wild west with random trainers already and a smaller pool.
Plus, as I showed with my example, I was at 3.1wkg having to compete with 4.45wkg - how is that any different to the spread of A of riders.
Also, and not be flippant, you have the power to fix those spread of riders, you have tried to fix it with plasters, itâs not working.
The negative consequences of raising the threshold to become a pen A rider in the modified Category Enforcement system using a 40min zFTP doesnât stop at pen B.
Just a small correction, there is no such thing as 40 min. zFTP. Itâs just zFTP.
If you read the tooltip in the web profile it says it is an estimation of the power you can sustain for more than 40 min. Typically between 40 min. and 1h.
Doesnât a partial solution already exist now that cats can be split. More split cats, but then needing more events on the calendar?
For example, take the crit club. Split each current race to 2 races. Part 1 being A and B cats split in half each. The other (Part 2) being C&D cats split in half each.
If you or someone else can get a unanimous opinion or even a democratic poll (thatâs not fake) on what the best or more correct boundaries between categories should be, I can get that approval much more easily.
Because letâs imagine we change things now. Then someone next week comes along and says it doesnât make sense because of whatever reason. We restart the debate againâŚ
Zwift have the data, you have the ability to make the changes, you have had feedback for a good while itâs not working, major race series are moving towards zwift racing app, but thatâs your response? Give overâŚ
Tell you what, publish all the data - the bell curve of users, where they fall now and everything that goes with it - there are smarter people than you & I who can do a better job at splitting it than we ever will (excluding moving to a results driven outcome)
Probably the best starting point would be pushing the zFTP calc out (start it from a higher duration) and lowering the zMAP thresholds. Then just sticking with the original zFTP > 4w/kg = A.
Of course if the new rankings system is coming soon, you can just say that and this will be seen as a temporary stop-gap measure.
Compound Score (5mins raw Watts x 5min W/Kg), using all 5 pens each race/TT, unless itâs an event throwing everyone together like is used for some TT events.
