So how do we start a massive push to get rid of the ladies only E category and change everything to cross gender - after all, if you’re putting out 3w/kg, what does it matter??? - and make D 1.8 → 2.4 and E < 1.8. Then, in my opinion, you would eliminate all of the complaining. I would stop even though I’d probably be at the back of the E but at least I would feel like I could push myself to stay close - compared to the hour behind I was on yesterday’s race.
The E category isn’t only for ladies.
The only thing it is used for from a Category Enforcement point of view, is that that is the category people enter when we don’t have any 60 day data for them.
Except there’s evidently an ability for a race organizer to use CE, but only have 1 cat available – eg. the Herd Beginner race series. There is no E available for this. Does this mean overall that having an E cat is optional? Or in the example provided, if you don’t have 60-day data are you prohibited from racing that race?
optional but it’s only used for one thing to put in uncategorised riders
CE uses fixed cat boundaries that cannot be changed and ZHQ are not interested in making that feature available so a CE D will always be 0 to 2.5
I think if you don’t enable e pen then you are free to enter any pen you want if you are uncategorised under CE
D rider here, I’ve been on Zwift for about 3.5 years. Most of that time I’ve been mid- to high D, in my best shape and slightly lower weight I raced low C, working back up to that now but have a ways to go.
The thing for me about racing is that while I enjoy it, there’s not a lot of room in my schedule for it. I usually get 3-4 rides in per week … but if there’s a monthly event like Makuri Islands that’s 1-2 rides per week. This is my first season of ZRL so that’s once per week. We do one practice/communication ride per week … and that’s 3-4 rides.
On top of that is knowing that in some percentage of races I’ll be in the D pen with some Cs and Bs and have to wait for the ZP results - it’s a decent compromise given how people will game systems but it’s not as good as being able to race against only Ds, since there’s almost always a pack of fliers that belongs in a different group.
And I have the advantage of being more likely to see a podium (I have two! one from when there were more than three Ds!); for the folks in D who end up well behind me, I can see it being even less appealing. While longer races don’t necessarily chase me away, I could see them being an issue for lower Ds.
I feel like it’ll be hard to get mid- to low Ds into races with people twice their w/kg. Until Zwift has the ability to break out D in whatever fashion - D1/D2/D3 or D/E/F/G - I’m not sure what more you can do. I appreciate the efforts of all those who try to make us welcome in the racing world!
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Dave - The D subcategories is what we’re doing with Herd Beginner Racing, but we can only do it on ZwiftPower afterwards. Everyone in the pen is a Category Enforcement D, and will be sorted afterwards by 20min power.
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I’d start by avoiding any race that still users ZP Cats.
Cat enforcement restricts the really over powered riders from entering the pen. You still will get some strong d or returning/new riders that get promoted after once race but you should get a good standard of races if you can pick out the busy races.
There are also other events like the Thursday TTT and things like chase races where there is less incentive to be attacking all the time.
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Finally had a window to do one of those today - loved it! It was nice to be able to hang with the front pack for a good bit. Looks like I’m just off the podium in F, which feels about right. Hoping to work my way farther up this winter.
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Still so many sandbaggers even with cat enforcement, how can a 3.0 win a cat D race? At least before cat enforcement they were weeded out by the 95 of 20 rule. This needs to improve.
That racer was just under the C limit before the race.
The good news is he will now race in C.
there will always be people with breakthrough performances, no matter what system you use to set categories.
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Breakthrough I think not, but that was just one example, really need a hardline on the 95% of 20, along with the cat enforcement. Not perfect but better. But excellent reply anyways. Thank You
Breakthrough performances are not necessarily sandbagging. It’s also what happens when people are near the top of a category and they get fitter. I congratulate them.
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They don’t go from 2.5 to a solid 3.0 my friend. But yes there should be progression you are correct. Again this is just one example of 1000’s.
I think a lot of folks are in the shoulder season. May have been using Zwift for their training Z2 tune-up rides and such, but been riding seriously outdoors. Now coming indoors for all of their riding. So CE is based on only what Zwift knows, until their first serious effort/race.
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Already exists…it’s called a fondo.
Maybe nobody else here will say it, but I will: you’re absolutely contradicting yourself. You freely admitted in your first post to riding well below your level, to finish 12th when you “probably could’ve won” in order to “stay in the D range.” That is, by definition, sandbagging. You, my friend, 100% have first-hand understanding of why people do it. Sorry, bro’, but you are the definition of a sandbagger!
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Didn’t participate earlier, but I thought I’d give my views on cat D. The cat I started in. The cat I later cheated in when I didn’t race in C. The cat I am now stuck in with post-covid lungs. I know it quite well by now.
There are a few things scaring people off from the D races, I think:
First, I’m going to stick my chin out, expecting every coach and his mother to scream “cancel!” The problem is most people at that level don’t understand that races are a very good way to train for a rather sizeable group of zwifters.
I’m not talking about guys like Samuel Brännström, top riders who trained doing a couple of races per day and only that (worked for them…). But if you’re a bit older and short on time in the week, always short on time all year, then a polarized approach to training is completely useless. You’ll stagnate in no time. And no, there is no scientific support for polarized being the superior option for this group. Or, in fact, any group. It works for some with the time and ambition for a reasonably high training volume. But not this group.
In fact, if you’re not getting any more time to ride even during the outdoor season than in the winter, just a few hours per week, an hour or two at a time at most, then what do you need endurance for in the first place? Skip the Z2 part, it’s pointless, and get some SST instead if you must. Or just race.
To get better within such a short time frame like 45-60 min, and only a few hours per week to train, then you need to go hard to improve. Races motivate you to go hard. And then you get used to go hard and start to like it. You also start to see results.
I personally find the event rides, like currently the Tour de Zwift, always extremely well-attended, to be motivating as well. There are groups to hang on to and hang in there with, always someone to race against up that hill, etc. You’ll find many D riders there. But nothing pushes you like the races. It’s not about winning. It’s all about pushing yourself in a fun context. Did you do a little better than last time? Are the numbers improving or did you have a bad day?
But I think a lot of would-be D racers don’t think that way. And it’s a shame. They’re missing out on many things, and they don’t know it.
Second, there are some things spoiling the fun in racing a bit. Cat D used to be notoriously infested by cheaters since any other category could sandbag there. With CE it’s much better, although you do see some cruisers every now and then, not nearly as many as before though.
But there’s another problem. The typical well-attended cat D race is a crit. The participants in the crits probably make up the bulk of active cat D racers, so without them the cat would be even emptier. But these guys are usually on the heavier side.
It’s no fun to race a crit against a bunch of guys at 90 or 100 kg if you’re not one of them, trust me, not while we still have the old cat system (I include CE in this). But that’s often where you need to go to find a race with a decent amount of participants, the crits. With a results-based ranking later on, this will become a non-isse since these heavy contenders will win their races as usual but then move on to a higher cat. Buh-bye!
You see this over and over in forums, neophyte racer looks at their numbers thinking they should be alright, perhaps even do well. But then they come up against the untouchables and you just can’t beat them at their own game. This should be complete turn-off for female racers at that level, as they tend to be light. The only two choices they have is being dead last in a single female cat or dead last way behind a bunch of heavy men. Fun?
Third, with such low participation already, you probably don’t want to bother to sign up unless you’re already something of a contender in D. Even if you’re not at the bottom of the WKG/WAP/whatever span, you risk having to ride more or less solo as there won’t be much of a gruppetto to stick with. And ride solo you can do anywhere, anyhow, so why race? Thus the problem becomes a vicious circle.
There’s not enough pull, not enough incentives to race, or at least people fail to see them. You would need to show them what’s in it for them, and then offer races that actually provide those things.
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I have (had) been racing fairly recently as a mediocre cat C (old, lightweight male) but this comment rings true for me also. There seems to be an ever-increasing number of riders who are putting out mammoth watts without breaking a sweat, Even uphill, you’ve got no chance against these pedal-mashers.
So, I’m taking a hiatus from Zwift racing for the foreseeable future, in the (possibly forlorn) hope that I might find some enjoyment again when/if Zwift’s new points-based ranking system is implemented.
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Aren’t fondos long distance races? Looking a week ahead the only fondo races are the WTRL TTTs…
Your note about crit races ring true. Shorter length/duration seems to be a big draw for D riders (was for me). In the race series I’ve entered over the last couple of years in that category, and week we had either a long 30km+ course, or one with a lot of climbing the numbers fell away. That could be true of other categories of course, but it seems to be more keenly felt in cat D.
I do think the group workout/group ride organisers might be able to promote their own race series (if applicable) more - like you say through promoting the benefits of racing.
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