Cat A racers almost alone in most of the races

Racing
43

yup, except you got that one fundamental reason wrong. well, some or even many might have that as a reason, but i think it’s too easy to dismiss it if people assume its that. i don’t think it’s as simple as one reason, though we agree there. i think A is a bit different to B and C. i wonder if D might have some of the same problems, but i’m not in D

edit: i guess i should clarify a couple things

1: i, and most other people on planet earth but certainly not me, am not mother theresa. if people don’t like something, they’ll avoid it, either proactively or entirely. i’m proactive
2: the actual pace in A is not an issue for me personally. i’d rather that have just went without saying though

44

D and A are definitely unique in terms of issues involved when it comes to racing, where C and B are definitely far closer in terms of why they are the way they are.

D you get people who might be under the impression they aren’t fit enough to race, or may lack the encouragement because of something along those lines (this isn’t always the case bear in mind, there are obviously lots of D’s who race, but… there’s probably far more who don’t)

A, I can definitely understand Tom’s point. Once you enter the realm of A, the sky is the limit of who you’re up against, and that’s… absolutely not encouraging to probably most people. You don’t have a clear understanding of who/what you’re against like you do in the lower categories; and that will also change day by day. There may some limited competition, the competition may be a cheater/uncalibrated trainer, or… it might be nobody at all.

D, C, B don’t have those open ends, you know you’re going into fairly limited (after the fact at least) capabilities (they’re broad, but… they don’t hold a stick to A; where for example someone like myself at 250w FTP can be penned against a 450w FTP monster at the same, or more, w/kg).

D however for some folks again I think is going to be more of a mental block than anything else. And if not a mental block, it could be a time limitation etc.

FRR I know is an insane thing to bring up in this context, but for the recent 3 week competition; a handful of 40ish Cat D riders completed the full tour… For the sake of comparison, it took those of us in the higher FRHC’s <25 hours for the full tour race time wise… meanwhile, some of the “D” based FRHC’s finished out well into the 40+ hours of racing (this isn’t even including warmup/cooldown times bear in mind).
But it’s worth considering for D’s, most of them will be on lighter loads / weekly (if even weekly), hours ridden; again most of this might be considered a mental block as well, but perhaps they’d rather ride to ride, and not “sweat it,” which is why they could be D’s.

And as we all know, C and B are definitely considerably larger fields with far more interest in racing (it’s also easier to get into, and most people end up getting into that competitive spirit not found in probably a mass majority of D riders on Zwift).

There’s definitely lots of reasons regardless…
Motivation across the board however, is pretty much the culprit.

The cause of lack of motivation is what varies.

2 Likes
45

You could just reverse weight dope. Within a few weeks or months you’ll be back to having fun with the Bs.

46

I don’t see why people wouldn’t be happy they’ve got to that point.

They must be doing something right to make it that far.

47

I’m sure they’re happy with their fitness and ability, just not happy with the resulting racing experience.

1 Like
48

This is where you’re wrong lol, and that’s where the issue lies.

There’s nothing to stop someone in A from having a fake 500w zFTP; as far as Zwift cares, it thinks having an FTP well over 400w is feasible and normal for anyone in the world, and accepts it.

2 Likes
49

My initial point was that there is almost no one racing in cat A. It’s absolutely not interesting to race alone. I think this is easy to understand. Andrew’s point is quite clear too: there is an enormous heterogeneity whitin the A cat (FTP from 4 to 6 w/kg). This is almost equal to the difference between a D (or a “weak” C) and a top B racer. A weak A just can’t follow a top A. It’s not funny for both of them. And what’s more some top A are professional racers (that may be interesting trying to survive behind them few km), but many just got a dumb trainer (and there is no point trying to follow them, like IRL, there’s not point for you trying to race against a motorcycle…). I guess it’s quite easy to understand too.

4 Likes
50

i wouldnt snitch on anyone who did it personally, but it is against the rules to do that. but the point of the thread isnt that the cat system can’t be finessed or anything, it’s more like, can’t it just be set up in a way that people don’t feel like that kind of awkward stuff is necessary?

51

It’s the same principle across all the categories- someone can be moved up a cat via zMAP with a ftp that is no where near the new category average…

B rider promoted via zmap from c could have a 20min or zFTP of 3.0wkg and be racing against people with 4.5wkg 20min effort all due to a zMAP promotion.

The system is broken, zwift staff have known this for god knows how long but seem to weak/uninterested/inept/slow to rectify it. ZRS was meant to be the saviour but if that is now in the long grass nothing improves.

2 Likes
52

Why fix it when people like us are paying £12.99p/m zwift are thing easy money

53

They have never garnered any brand loyalty… Il use it till there’s a better option as it’s fits a need.

2 Likes
62

What rules? Honest question. I can’t easily find a rulebook anywhere that says you can’t pretend your avatar is wearing a large backpack full of bricks. Zwift doesn’t even seem to do anything about the more common types of cheating. I think reverse doping is not on their list of priorities. Enforcing that won’t make the company profitable.

The real problem with cat a is not that there are wkg monsters. Ok that’s a problem if you can’t handle being worse than someone, but I for one am quite used to it. The sooner you come to grips with not being Pogacar the better your life will be. The problem that I see, from when I race up in the As (I’m a high B, borderline miscategorized), is rampant cheating. Some is blatant and some is 4cm and 4kg. (How do I know this? Well for one thing, some of these narcissists post their IRL figures on social media and it’s easy to cross reference. Secondly, some of the narcissists post a weight checkin video which verifies that for a split second 16 months ago, probably after a 200km 40°C ride, they weighed some number of kg that hasn’t been updated ever since.) If I cheated by 4cm and 4kg then I would definitely be an A, but I’m glad I don’t for all the reasons stated in this thread.

So to my mind, it’s great that cat A is there to filter all the narcissists out of the Bs. Some honest gifted riders will get caught up in that too, but in my experience the majority of legit gifted riders find IRL competitions wherein to smoke everyone.

I fear any update to the category system because the only possible outcome is to force me to deal with more cheaters, which itself only really matters because I find they tend to be insufferable self-aggrandizing chatterboxes on top of fakers. The fake numbers themselves really don’t bother me because from my garage/perspective they could just as well be real. (But the blatant fake numbers which can mess with race tactics, those do of course diminish the experience.)

The pie in the sky goal of making Zwift competitions more true to life is a nice one that I wish could be fulfilled. My ideal race field is a mixed A/B field with a lot more Bs than As, and everyone knows who the big guns are (glowing borders indicating fitness?). Because that is more like real life, and tactics can offset physical advantages, and I like the challenge of beating someone stronger than myself. But will we ever get there? I’m not holding my breath.

1 Like
63

Perhaps riders way above pro level numbers should go into an “enhanced games” category so legit riders don’t have to race people with a bogus 500W FTP. But that’s unlikely to make the A fields bigger - perhaps it will pull in a few people who hate the present experience, but my guess is it would shrink fields more than grow them in A, so it would have to be combined with changes to the category boundaries to right-size the fields.

64

If we’re just purely trying to deal with field sizes, there just need to be fewer cat a events to choose from. Don’t draft a bunch of worse riders up into the big leagues to be your cannon fodder.

65

Well they made a change last year that pushed a bunch of As into B - what’s wrong with undoing that?

But to your point, I suppose they could just eliminate A category from some events to force them to choose from a smaller set of choices.

4 Likes
66

+1
Only way to boost A numbers.
Fake people may think they are getting away with it and being cheeky.
They are just customers and we like their business :slight_smile:

67

Fewer Cat, i just did race 160 C, would like to be size up of 250 race+, Zwift show you close 100 riders.

68

You just want more wheels to suck :blush:

1 Like
69

i feel you. the reason i don’t recommend it is because i got a (botched) 90 day zp ban for racing on a 2nd account since this one was stuck in CE A to the tune of 1 watt about a year and a half ago, no backpack needed, so presumably there’s a rule against it. i have since made my peace with god and the three race organisers affected, but i dont wanna see other people getting banned even if it is unlikely. it was funny until it wasnt

70

If I understand your story correctly, that just means that racing on a second account is banned, and that action didn’t handicap you in the lower category, unlike adding extra weight.