Anti sandbagging and other areas that need development and communication

Racing
2134

The understanding of the problem is good, the solution is bad.

Fixed 20 min power based categories cause these problems. Sure, having bigger fields and tighter categories will make for closer races, but if you just get rid of the categorisation system altogether, you can have rewarding racing regardless of the field size, across all event formats. Some of the best racing on zwift is the smaller lesser known events. (actually the best ones are normally private, as a way to control sandbagging).

Whilst we are only given tidbits, the vibe is positive. Pen enforcement based on existing categories, followed by the ability for race organisers to define how the pens are the split.

A rewarding progression system is the final layer to take zwift racing to the next level.

7 Likes
2135

unless i’m competing in a series i choose events based on the course profile and what intervals i want to do on a given day rather than the amount of people in the race and probably a lot of other people do too

1 Like
2136

Zwift broadcasts the data of the nearest 100 or so riders to you.

Power, cadence, HR, all of that is being sent in across your network connection.

2137

WTRL ranking can be funny sometimes, we have a (not all that) new rider who is a B and a top end one, but WTRL has catted him as a C.

No system is going to perfect, and I don’t think we are aiming for perfection (at least I’m not). There seem to be too many that think incrementally doing things which won’t help or doing nothing because you’ll never solve an unsolvable problem.

I do see that Zwift have changes coming down the line, so I guess we just have to wait and see what comes along.

Like I said, no system will ever be perfect, but Zwift need to attract new users and retain users, and that requires action.

2 Likes
2138

HAHAHA!

Thread locked. What may have been the reason… let me see now… “trying to keep the discussion together?” or “redundancy - there’s already a thread on this topic (where we like to bury all criticism)”?

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2139

Let’s be fair, criticism is hardly buried on this thread!

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2140

Yes, it is. You can post something about ZP not registering races properly a million times (and people have) without the threads getting locked. But for some reason the hot topic of the race rule set has to be “merged” into a thread with thousands of replies that nobody except the usual suspects ever reads. It’s all about making a tidy impression. And you know exactly why the thread was locked.

1 Like
2141

Well it’s nice to see the existing anti sandbagging code works (this was an official ‘Anti sandbagging Zwift race’) :crazy_face:

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Must have been a much more complex piece of code compared to whatever is (hopefully) being worked on now.

EDIT: Removed rider names.

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2142

What happened with that winner, Michael? Were they one of those people who’s so powerful they could stay with the group even when hit with the green triangle? Or did they never get green triangled?

2143

What are you referring to…?

2144

I saw one green triangle early on, but was a Zpower rider. Didn’t see any others and definitely not in the main bunch at the end.

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2145

He’s referring to Finally! Cheating made easy for everyone being locked.

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2146

I found this is often the case with E races. In categorized (and segregated) races, I found myself getting dropped and it turned into a lone bike ride; would have been better off just choosing a route and not racing. Big fields and E (or mixed) races are proving to be the most fun.

3 Likes
2147

I’m enjoying the 3R races.

Most show all categories and basically start together.

I just ride as an A now. I then race at whatever speed I feel like. Ride with Ds if I’m doing endurance work, or ride up the order for other efforts.

I gave up caring about actual racing as the cheating is out of control.

This pen enforcement announcement is very positive. If it’s effective, I’ll definitely get back into some racing.

Cheers for the update.

6 Likes
2148

It IS very positive. The biggest problem right now in terms of sheer numbers is sandbagging and it will take care of that effectively. They just need to… umm… actually release something. Sandbagging has been undermining the current rule set.

Post-pen enforcement, though, you can still cheat e.g. using Zwift Activity Monitor (discussed in the locked thread) or something (do you Garmin people already have a moving 20 min power average measure since long?) Heavy riders also have an unfair advantage. And this is not because the current rule set is being undermined by something, but rather that the rule set itself undermines Zwift as a sport. The current rule set needs to be drawn and quartered, then buried deep with a stake through the heart in a lead coffin welded shut, never to be spoken of again.

1 Like
2149

I agree totally Andreas.

I’ve just given up caring. Zwift racing is fun and great training. However, it has little or no bearing on actual ability. Cheating is incredibly easy. A surprising percentage of people do it. Those that think only a small percentage cheat are living in a dream world.

To get even near to fair racing, every racer on Zwift would need actual accurate scales, accurate weigh in protocols, accurate height protocols, multiple high quality power sources and a team of people going over that data for every single event. Obviously, that’s impossible, so it’s the wild west.

Current power meters are all over the show re accuracy, even from single brands. How these are all supposed to be level from multiple manufactures. No chance.

Currently, we’re supposed to use the least accurate power meter available to us, the low quality trainer, to control the game. A friend of mine is a cycling coach, he sees tons of power data, daily. His real world experience… the chances of having equal and accurate data from all of those different sources… zero. Absolutely zero.

Then, add in two little boxes where we can just write in our ‘numbers’… I’ll be 50kgs and 140cm thanks :grin:

So, if an independent tester arrived at our home, weighed us pre race, installed an accurate calibrated power meter before every race and oversaw the upload of that data. Maybe then, it would be close to real. Maybe…

Until then, it’s just a game, a fun social racing platform.

It’s not real. Not even close. There’s a metric truckload of cheats.

However, the pen enforcement is good start. You’re 100% right, it won’t stop determined sandbaggers, cruisers and rampant cheats.

It’s just a start, I think we’ll all agree that anything is better than nothing at this point.

2 Likes
2150

I don’t care about that kind of cheating. It will always be there. If a user is legally good or is faking, it is perceived the same way by the other racers. It does not affect the race. The problem is when the best racers are not promoted to the next level.

16 Likes
2151

I agree with @OleKristian, that is not the biggest problem. I also don’t mind racing against someone that has a trainer that always read 10% high as long as he is in the correct category, because he will be in a higher category than what he should be, so he will have to work just as hard…It only become a problem in A+ and A and there we can have strict rules.

9 Likes
2152

Exactly this. Accuracy is not an issue, we’re just racing avatars who we probably don’t even know IRL. So, who cares if Joe Bloggs is not really a 50kg climber? As long as they race others of their own ability, it has no bearing on other racers’ enjoyment. For this, we need pen enforcement first, then rankings.

Obviously, if there are prizes involved, it needs to be as accurate as possible.

10 Likes
2153

Agreed.

The accuracy is not the problem. It’s the experience. I was merely pointing out that we are many many miles from reality, even with strict pen enforcement etc.

I’m in two minds, yes obviously I want a B race to be B riders. That has to be the first step, above anything else. However, I’ve got a sneaky suspicion that it will be a while longer before we can expect the serious cheaters to give up.

I raced this morning. I was actually doing a power meter test, so rode with different groups etc.

My God, the level of cheating is NUTS. I feel sorry for anyone not racing in A. B, filled with cruisers. C, mix of sandbaggers and cruisers, D… basically pointless. Cheating so outta control you’d never race again.

Please for the love of God Zwift. Engage pen enforcement the second it’s functional. As a company you’re doing a terrible job of protecting your new and weaker riders from weak minded bullies.

They are your customers.

8 Likes