the dynamic pacing is wrong.
I’m ok increasing the power going up hill but IRL when a group come to down hill, we don’t decrease the power but 10 or 20 %, we coast.
If the pace partner did this, it would be easier for lighter riders to stay in contact.
John, I just read your comment and mirrored it exactly.
I guess the question is, what type of ride are you looking for. Personally if I join a pacer I’d like to keep my power within a certain level whether it’s on hills or descents. I don’t want to completely coast down the hills and sit there doing nothing for the few minutes I’m riding. Maybe others like to train by not doing anything downhill, but I don’t think that is universal.
Most of the Watopia RP routes which tend to be really flat, there’s never a possibility of minutes of coasting. 10 seconds or so, maybe
Yeah, flat routes are great and clearly what most Zwifters choose when there’s an option. My statement is only for the hilly routes.
Here’s a thought… what if Zwift could launch a middle-level RP that was an always-banded ride? Do whatever power you want, whenever you want and stay with the pack…
Almost 100 votes want lighter robopacers in addition to the ones already there.
Not a banded group ride.
So you only need one pacer across the board? Folks doing 100W going just as fast as folks doing 400W, yeah, let’s see if that goes over well 
Or literally just someone with influence manipulating it.
As if voting on this forum has actually changed the direction of anything anyways; there are far more significant threads with next to zero votes; some that have, and some that have not seen the light of day
Descents since bots going dynamic has always been unusual.
I like the increase in climbs (assuming they aren’t excessively long); but the descents always seem to go… awry in my case.
I generally either push away, or get sucked away from the bot. Usually the classic slingshot through the group will allow the bot to catch me up; or… if the group is small enough, I just end up in a breakaway and don’t return to the bot.
With that; IF, a lightweight bot is produced… I don’t believe it should reduce power on the descents, because then it absolutely would be dropped, and the descent speed would be extremely awkward I presume for… literally everyone; including sub 50kg riders.
Personally, my experience with the reduction in power on descents is just not a positive one; the reduction in power is too extreme, and the slingshot effect of PD, too high, and it all just feels unnatural; that someone underweight from the bot I would normally end up with… ends up behind me.
With the mention of normal / human lead group rides…
I don’t know about anyone here…
But what human group ride leader reduces power output on descents?
I don’t. (In Zwift specifically; outdoors, I, like others, usually freewheel, or absolutely keep pedaling to gain momentum)
Some of this may come down to being at 80% TD and not 100% …?
Though, for people far less than that, would only be worse; because then they don’t experience downhill in Zwift hardly at all.
But I live in an extremely hilly area; and am trying to best compare to my experience with RP’s in “the esses”, which is where things go super poorly; either I get dropped, or I drop the bot, because the pace is “too dynamic,” either due to PD, or, the bot’s power adjustment going to both extremes.
Final thought on this:
Maybe it’s weird to me because the increase power on the climbs of current bots usually keeps me still in the same zone; but, the descents (to stay with the bot) requires me to drop down a zone, or just come off power completely until things settle.
(maybe I can’t word it well, but my point being; in my experience, the descents with bots just “feels wrong”)
There are 2 groups that require a similar fix put in place to resolve issues, that is a fix for heavier riders and a fix for lighter riders which likely includes the introduction of either new PP(s) or a change to the dynamics of the existing ones…
To only focus on & fix one of those issues would be a pretty poor experience for one group - An overall review and update to the pace partners with some joined up thinking would go a long way.
You can do better than that, that’s pretty low accusing top community members of manipulating votes. This sounds like desperation to derail or deflect away from the original request.
I have a fair bit of power despite my physical issues and I certainly don’t remain in the same power zone chasing Constance uphill. I don’t go into the red but my heart rate does go up.
Descent reflects real life descents where it is not about raw power but your ability to handle the bike. I know you’ll try and school me on that too but I encourage you not to given how much riding in mountains I do and how many I’ve gone up and down.
Remember also the reduced power on the descent was to stop the bots and groups going too fast which was a serious problem.
If the bots maintained a higher pace downhill you’d end up getting people dropped all the time going downhill. As it is, this can still happen now.
That’s another thing totally - people want at least lighter robopacers in addition to the existing ones as a start.
Andrew… come on. What IS your problem? People have voted. Just bcs you don’t agree with the request don’t go around throwing accusations of manipulation. It is what it is. There are women and lighter riders who simply are voting for a bot that will behave in the same way as they do. Leave it alone now.
I don’t feel like that’s changed though; it has only delayed how it happens; hence my commentary about how I have to make a great attempt to stick with a bot on a descent and manage my power in a “I want to stay right here” fashion, or else I either run away, or get shunted out the back.
Because if I get ahead, it’s only a matter of time generally speaking, that I get smothered with a tidal wave of folks; until I ramp up my power more than whatever I was doing on the climb immediately before to grab on.
None of my commentary is about “schooling,” it’s all anecdotal notes because RP’s as a whole aren’t meant to answer anything or be specific to anyone, I’ve mentioned this a multitude of times that they’re a solution to nothing in particular, other than something that resembles group riding; which… for SOME, yes, it is group riding, they chat… but every time I ride with a bot I never hear a peep; again… everyone will experience RP’s very differently due to their nature.
Sure, my HR will climb on a climb, but what I am getting at for me personally, the effort on the climb (being lightweight), is minimal, compared to the change in effort on the descent; which is… a massive reduction.
I imagine if I rode with a RP lighter than me, this would be made worse, where the power pulled back might be too extreme for … everyone that isn’t <50kg.
Here is my evidence from last week of what I’m referring to; this was sticking with a bot, and running away before getting swept back up eventually in the esses.
This is a drop of over 100w, and I still ran away.
This sample is going from 3.2w/kg down to 0.6w/kg for >30s on a climb that wasn’t even 1 minute long.
correction: it was a 20 second climb and waiting ~2 minutes for pace to recover to me where I could begin upping my pace.
It has changed massively compared to what it was. In the days of Bowie it was far too quick. Now I can stay with them and get some recovery.
But you still have the robopacer uphill speeds/power being too great.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with Andrew or Kat. My weight is 67kg, so I’m kinda in the middle. I have been getting fitter and losing weight. Used to be 77kg. I realize it has been a gradual drop, but I really don’t see a difference. I still ride ride the same Robo pacers. After the race today I rode with 1.8 and 2.2 bots. Switched back and forth a couple times. The gap between the two bots seemed the same as always. Probably about 10 bpm. If I wanted to fine tune it more, I could just change frames or wheels. Just adding my opinion to the debate
Hey Doug, you’re only 8kg off the pace bot vs 15kg. Makes quite a difference. In 2020/21 the bots weighed 65kg and it seemed to work better and no complaints like today.
If the UX is the issue with adding additional RP, have 2 rows of RP, one row with the lighter RP, one row with the current RP. That should be clearly labeled, and should not be confusing. Simply choose the RP that more closely aligns with your weight and expected power output.
A thought about RP w/kg on a route, Zwift has thousands of rides on all the route segments. Average all the rides that are not done with RP, and use that as the template for how to have the RP perform on that route - where to increase and decrease power and by how much, on hills and descents. I say use the rides that are done without a RP because individuals react differently when riding a route with a RP than they would if they were riding it without. At least I know I do. That would probably more realistically represent how someone would ride on the hillier routes.
My n =1:
If I’m doing a solo endurance ride I’ll use my gears to try to maintain steady-ish power at all times.
If I’m doing a solo fartlek tempo style ride, I’ll do 65% of FTP on the flats and 85% to 90% of FTP on the climbs.
I’ll do both sorts of ride on the same route. If you average the two, amusingly, you pretty much get my typical RP ride.
„Coco light’s pace on the flat will perfectly match Maria’s (standard Maria) pace“
You‘re completely wrong here…
Coco lights pace = 50kg * 2,6 w/kg = 130w
Maria standard pace = 75kg * 2,2 w/kg = 165w
Maria standard would be vastly faster than Coco light in that example.
Watts per kilo do not matter on the flat.
Have you all skipped your physics classes?
It is perfectly realistic right now:
Heavier riders have it easier on the flat but harder on the climbs.
Lighter riders have it easier on the climbs but harder on the flat.
I could see keeping male pacers at 75kg and changing female pacers to 60kg.
But 50kg robo pacers are utter nonsense.
From the Zwiftinsider article “How Rider Weight Affects Speed on Zwift”
Flat Test Observations
While some Zwifters like to say “it’s all about pure watts on flat roads,” it’s not that simple. Weight does affect your speed on the flats in Zwift, since it changes your computed CdA. Or to put it another way: two riders of the same height but different weights will have different CdA values in Zwift, meaning the heavier rider will need to push more watts to keep up with the lighter rider, who is encountering less (virtual) air resistance.
Conclusion: reducing your body weight by 1kg will save you ~9 seconds over an hour-long flat race effort on Zwift.
I’m not sure us males really get a say in whether it is nonsense or not.
We have quite a lot of people asking for lighter robopacers at light weights.
It’s now for them to be added on Watopia in addition to the regular robopacers and see how they work, just like how pace dynamics changes are pushed out (you don’t get a say in that either, it just happens and you find out later). I don’t think the addition of some lighter robopacers is going to cause too much drama.
It could have some benefits in making the largest groups smaller (which might help in slowing them down).
Hopefully this can happen and then if tweaks are needed, let them happen rather than having endless back and forwards debates.
That’s fine if they are on their own, but they aren’t. It is distorted by how many people are with the group and who is at the front of the group. That’s where all these computer-bot tests all come undone.
