For all the lighter riders out there, who are sick of fighting to stay close to a bot who weighs 75kg it would be great to have the option to pick a lighter bot whose ride behaviour will be much closer to ours. If you weigh 50kg and ride with a 75kg bot it’s a battle to hold position particularly on any inclines or down hills (even with the slowest of the bots). The 75kg bot will surge up the first part of the climb obviously having a lot more inertia and then hurtle downhill giving lighter rider no chance to ease slightly. With the recent change to pack dynamics, it feels like it is even more pronounced as being shoved out to the side out of the draft and not being able to get back in is so frustrating. I even have steering and can’t get back in, as I just have the big red wall, and I either must drop back to come back in or speed up to the front. Why was I pushed out to the side in the first place though. I was holding pace. This was not an issue until Pack Dynamics changed recently.
I would 100% choose a 50kg bot if I could so the behaviour is closer to mine . I am sure most the females (who will represent a massive chunk of the lighter riders) will agree it would be nice to have this option.
I couldn’t agree more! I’ve been a 49kg Zwift addict for 4 years and used to regularly ride 100km with Yumi Bot with friends of all weights and sizes. The different Pace Dynamics of today(PD5) have just killed it for lighter riders. I now fall off Maria pushing 3wpk amongst other 75kg riders chilling at 2wpk and overtaking me… I’m now just riding solo as it’s so demotivating riding with the bots @75kg and being pushed out to the side, pushing higher wpk and still drifting to the back then being spat out. Sadly this has killed the magic of zwifting as the social element and being able to ride with fellow riders of all weights and sizes has been taken away with the new PDs. I don’t think 75kg is the typical average weight of a female zwifter so having a lighter bot would certainly be welcomed. But for now… and until PD5 is sorted (auto-braking removed, steering allowed, algorithm adjusted to take into account that not all riders / women are 75kg…) its solo ride avoiding groups :0(
Totally agree was unaware of the update to Zwift , but while riding a group ride on Saturday I witnessed the unfair power that light riders had to do to keep within a group ride at 2.5wkg @Zwift look after all riders and bring in 50kg robo pacers
Does it work to just add some weight to your own avatar to bring up to about the same as the bots? Of course you have to then choose a slower bot than you would normally go with.
If this is a problem based on Zwift dynamics, this can be solved by tweaking the Pack Dynamics physics - Pace Bots should be pegged at a set pace (w/kg) not a reflection of the dynamics of those around the pacer. In the other post, the idea was bots being on TT bike to void the pack effect. However changing the Pacebots drafting characteristics will get the the same objective.
If Zwift is going to be accessible to all I don’t think it’s just a gender question, it’s also an age/weight question. If women and juniors are coming into cycling with the pacebots not representing their needs, maybe there’s a call for weight differentiated pace bots before women and juniors log out and migrate to other platforms.
Personally, I only partially experience the problem being below the average pace riders weight and know the fight to maintain a steady pace with gradient changes, however fully empathise with all the calls I’ve seen on Zwift to this being a major issue for lighter riders.
Granted, there will be those wanting to “cheat the system” but they can be sandbagged etc.
Or just… let return the bots that don’t adjust pace at all?
The pace partner argument will go on forever until everyone remembers that they aren’t perfect training partners for anyone.
They are what Zwift marketing now calls them, “24/7 group rides.”
The power required to be with one varies hour by hour, day by day; entirely dependent on the route they are on, and more importantly; the size of the group dragging the pace higher.
Pack Dynamics haven’t changed in over a year yall, this isn’t something new.
Last update to PD was September 2023.
(steering update as of November 2024 however is definitely breaking PD though)
SOLUTIONS:
Use the teleport feature more
Use a slower bike / wheels and go down a robo partner
Or use Robo Partners less
Changing the weight of the RP’s won’t change anything; heavier, higher wattage riders will continue to join them, and the same issue will exist, and will be of no difference than they currently are.
I think you will find the PDs have changed, it is just not announced anymore. Certain important zwift folk have confirmed it…
A 50kg bot (whether large pack or small around it) will behave like a 50kg rider. So it won’t hurtle down hill dropping all the “lighties” and it won’t get dragged along faster and faster by heavier riders because I don’t, so it shouldn’t.
PD’s have not changed, I assure you, I’m a nerd about these things and pay great attention to these details.
Steering has been bugged and affects things currently, yes, but that isn’t directly PD.
As for a lightweight RP, they would suffer the exact same issues the rest of lightweights have to deal with; if more heavier riders get in front of them, they’ll start getting brake checked and the pace will be all sorts of inconsistent and wrong.
What you’re asking for is a non pace changing RP.
Not one that weighs less.
The RP’s go slow down hills because they pull back power dramatically. I often find myself dropping them on very rolly terrain after a climb and a descent; because their power is ~0.5w/kg difference from the climb to the descent.
That last bit is what’s bad… it has nothing to do with weight in this case.
Regardless; it would suffer the same issues lightweights have.
Getting shunted tot he rear of the pack, until folks who want to stay close, ease the gun, get close… and then power back up and shunt them to the rear again.
You should just be asking for non pace changing RP’s.
Which is what a larger portion of the population would like to see.
(Or… alternatively; just not ease power on the descents, either as much, or in general).
Pack Dynamics changed a few weeks ago. Initially tested in Watopia for free riding and then rolled to events recently. Zwift Insider told us whilst riding with friends.
I am a nerd too plus I ride a real lot across 5 different Bots and group rides and instantly noticed when it happened and yes there appears to be an impact on steering too but having joined a steering disabled event I experienced exactly the same issues.
To be clear I am still advocating for 50kg bots on behalf of all fellow lighties as a 50kg bot will behave more like me than a 75kg bot.
I assumed the only change was whatever on broken watopia is happening to steering. Interesting.
I noticed some alterations to how packs fed pace wise, but it disappeared for a few weeks.
I guess the actual drafting etc. stats may not have changed, just… whatever on earth is happening to avatar placement.
I was considering shutting steering off for all of our rides in the meantime to see if it helps it (granted… will help the ones where steering users make it worse!).
My point stands though; once someone “average” sized joins said 50kg bot (because why would they assume one is different than another). It would still get shoved around the same way we do; which would make it more confusing I think to most.
As it stands people barely understand why they aren’t consistent in the first place.
One that acts even more strange I can only imagine would be worse / more aggravating to the average non-caring user.
And when Cat says she rides a lot … we’re talking a lot lot and she knows her stuff… like 300,000 ZWIFT km lot… first woman and (50kg ZWIFTer ) to ride that many km. I think she knows the PD inside out
To be fair I only started June 2021 and have 62,000 (according to ZPower, no idea how to find the real number)
Does over 800,000 calories count??? LOL
But I think 12-18 hours a week and being a beacon for two years helps.
Or its the number of spreadsheets for data analysis for my racing team
Also just for clarity; I am a feather as well. I clocked in at 58kg last week, so I understand greatly how “we” are affected (and how to make use of heavyweights on races, especially when PD4 at introduction was… far worse than it is now).
But I still don’t think a lightweight RP would solve how wonky RP dynamics can be.
The PD5 changes are small Andrew…the change is how NO Steering riders are following the Steering riders.
Additional change is also to the unvisible bubble around avatars that now match for both steering and no steering riders.
Now you have to go around the avatar so you hit the wind faster and you need more power to go around.
Who at ZHQ do we have to poke to actually put this stuff in patchnotes for once.
But good to know; so it is specifically the tied steering stuff. (I guess my definition of PD by standards is ignoring the nightmare that is steering and how it’s ruining PD in general)
