In a lot of events which are flat of just undulating, w/kg doesn’t provide much information regarding speed and clearly a 60kg rider is going to have to put out considerably more w/kg than a 90kg rider.
A few group rides include this information but wouldn’t it be good if this was the norm?
It would be rather difficulty to set a speed since it is constantly changing due to the elevation change. Also bigger groups goes faster than smaller ones.
Also a 60kg rider has to put out considerably less wattage than a 90kg rider.
Best is to find a ride that is about 60%-70% of your ftp/weight.
On the flat the amount of power required isn’t significantly different for riders of different weights and downhill a heavier rider needs less power. Average speed is what I’m suggesting
I don’t think it would help, speed is greatly effected by the draft as well as the terrain and even bike choice.
Also I don’t want to join an event and have to read a bunch of chat messages complaining that people are going 20 kph when they’re supposed to be going 18 kph
HQ gives event creators two choices: w/kg or average speed. Most do seem to use w/kg, which only has meaning as an equalizer while climbing, and many routes are flat to rolling and by no means steady-state efforts.
WSR has used an average pace window of 27-32 kph for nearly our entire existence with great success, coming in very close to 30 kph consistently. My speed as event leader typically varies as low as 15-20 kph and as high as 60+ kph depending on the chosen route, but the average pace is solid. The only time we emphasize w/kg is during uphill efforts, and I try to keep close to 2 w/kg for those bits, again with great success in keeping riders grouped.
Overall, I think most riders understand average speed/pace a lot more than w/kg.
The bottom line is still: know the route you are riding and how your “game controller” works on that course
At my events, I always mix up the use of specific speeds on roads less than 3% and w/kg from 3% and above. It has worked pretty well for me and provides clarity for riders to keep together as a group.
Besides that, I provide information about the terrain ahead to the group so we can use the gears properly to manage the pace (eg. false flat ahead, 2% rise followed by descent). It is no rocket science to read speed in kph/mph and effort in w/kg. Those who chose to ignore my instructions are those hugging the fence and/or already sent packing by the boot.
I would disagree here a 60kg rider @1.8w/kg need to do 108w and a 90kg rider @1.8w/kg need 162w/kg.
I use the w/kg just to make it easy for riders to pick a ride that will be in there ball park. My rides have a range of 1.8w/kg to 2.5w/kg, as a bigger leader I stick to the low end of the range and most of the group will fall somewhere in the middle. I never exceed the top of the range on any climb.
The danger with speed is that a strong leader can keep the speed at say 30km/h even on a 3% climb this will split the group very easy, the leader are still within the set parameters but a lot of riders can’t keep up with that.
Some rider leaders are very good at controlling the pace Like @Phil_Ruokis_WSR, I did a lot of his rides when I started.
In my rides I never mention w/kg, I urge the riders to just keep with my pace.
I think a rider doing 108kw will be faster than any tdf winner. LOL
Yes the heavy rider may be a bit faster if it was perfectly flat but not by a lot, that is why we use a range of w/kg so heavy riders can ride at the bottom of the scale and light riders at the upper end.
Just to put this in perspective. This is results from a Team Time Trial event using Road Bikes the course was Greater London Flat. The 3 riders was drafting of two stronger team mates (5 in the team) you can see the lightest rider averaged 185w while the heavy rider did 303w. That is a big difference for a flat route. but looking at the w/kg they are in the same ball park.
It’s very important when considering which metric to use that there’s an understanding of steady-state versus a mix of efforts. A 30 kph “average” is not necessarily a flat 30 kph for the entire event. There’s also group draft to contend with - it’s not unusual at all for me, at 83 kg, to be moving at 40 kph while only tapping out 0.8 w/kg due to a large group “blob” in action.
Perhaps many are confusing w/kg in a mixed group context with the concept of % of FTP which is commonly used as a workout metric: with % of FTP being equal between two riders of different abilities, both riders are experiencing the same degree of effort relative to their individual abilities (an hour at 90% FTP will feel just as hard for an elite rider’s fitness level as the same hour at 90% FTP would for a rider of lesser fitness) - but, if they were riding together, they would certainly not remain grouped for long. This accounts for the “rubber band” feature in group workouts - if there were no banding, group workouts would splinter quickly.
Every event will have a different feel based on route choice, event type, and riders in attendance - understanding how each of these metrics works in context (speed, w/kg, %FTP, group draft variables) helps all riders achieve personal success during their rides. @Patrick_Ascenders_As makes a great point about that balance of concepts, and I try to use similar communications to riders during WSR events.
Great back-and-forth, folks - love this kind of discussion.