It’s great that you’re listening to user feedback for once (now, about those basic shadows on ultra profile…) but this statement is completely wrong. It would be very simple to map XP directly to levels. Probably the simplest issue with Zwift to solve.
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This could be a way - but it would be very tricky to sort out.
Maybe it’s best to just leave everything well alone. The damage is done.
@Jon - do away with XP banking and never ever go near that again. Adjusting the XP of riders artificially upwards or downwards got Zwift into this mess. Just put everyone against whatever level they should be at for the XP they have. If my 1.5m XP gives me level 150 or something, fine, put me at that level overnight. But no convoluted schemes to slow me getting there.
Just keep adding more levels even if you don’t add unlocks. Socks and gloves we don’t care about. Maybe a bike here and there at every 50 levels perhaps, that’s all.
This is silly - and would create even more angry people than the price changes. Probably intended to upset people though among the lines of watching the world burn.
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Why? Everyone would have their “true” level assigned without all the banked XP confusion; it’s easy to understand and doesn’t involve complicated maths; you’d always know how much you had to gain to achieve the next level; it would be easy to compare yourself with every other Zwifter.
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Your scheme would be putting people who have legitimately earned higher levels by lots of riding over a long time back at lower levels.
Someone at level 100+ is not going to be pleased being dropped back to a much lower level.
Where things went wrong was newer riders getting to level up too fast. And the long term riders have their XP reset to 500,000 when the level 50-60 upgrade came.
But will they be less displeased than someone with 500,000 XP being dropped back to 200,000XP in real terms, as that’s pretty much what happened with the last update.
I’ve already stated my preference, so won’t belabour that point.
I’m definitely fan of the prestige system. Hit 100, start again from “1” but with one star against your level/name or something. Have a level 100 jersey that gets more flashy each time it’s hit again. Bronze 100, silver, gold, platinum, diamond, 1 star, 2 star, 3 star, army stripes, anything that people can look at and think “Wow! They’re on level 500+!”
Those who don’t care about levels mightn’t wear it, but those who want to show it off can do so.
Of course there are plenty of other ways to implement something cool. I’d love to see something like my OW Progression screen for example.
I could imagine a similar system that reflects how much a Zwifter climbs, rides with Pace Partners, enters group rides or races etc.
But everyone would be affected equally. It’s like when the UK went to decimal coinage. The 12 pence you used to have became 5 pence but you weren’t worse off as a result as each penny was worth more.
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Good way to ensure even more people leave Zwift than already happening. Best thing is to leave all this XP alone and just add infinite extra levels.
There are already enough very angry people, better avoid doing any controversial changes that will upset even more. That effort spent on messing with levels and XP could be better spent on more new roads and fixing up bugs… Surely?
Or better to leave the bugs outstanding and do changes that upset users?
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@Jon and @shooj , I have some feedback and a suggestion… first, I agree with Jon that the 591,00 XP to Level 100 was way too accelerated. Having said that, the train has left the station on that one. I think if you downgrade people that have been working towards that stated goal by moving the goalposts, you will anger a lot of riders. So I’m not recommending that. I also think that the sensible thing is to tie a riders level to the amount of XP they have; not banked XP, but the actual level of XP they have. So my recommendation is that you keep the current system of level 1-100 the way it is, and then simply add levels every 11,000 XP out to infinity. I do not recommend giving out additional kit/gloves/garage stuff for each level… may be a jersey every 50 levels but that’s it. Once all that is established, simply move everyone to the level that their level of XP currently supports. So if a rider has 602,000 XP, they will be level 101 (591,000 + 11,000). If they have 613,000, they’ll be level 102 (591,000 + (2 * 11,000)). Don’t try to come up with some convoluted banked/accelerated way to move people up… just get them to the level that their current level of XP supports. And then you can just leave it alone. If later on you want to add some sort of prize for a particular level, you can work that. But this will make the level and XP problem pretty much go away. Everyone will have a level that corresponds to the amount of XP they have earned, and Zwift will no longer have to mess with that formula.
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I agree with your suggestion to eliminate banked XP. As long as banked XP and accelerated leveling exist, there will be no elegant solution. All of the solutions will involve some pain, so I’d pick one that is simple and elegant, and try to make it annoy the least number of people. At that point you say “ship it” and acknowledge the hopefully small number of people whose expectations are not met. If it requires complex explanations, it’s the wrong option.
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Hallelujah!
Paul is so right here. I just went back and reread the Zwift Insider article from December explaining the current system and I’m still confused as to how my extra XP contributes to my leveling up. Please just give me the levels and be done with it.
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The problem is that some random people on forums loudly shout that idea down - I suspect not because they see anything wrong with it, just that they love to watch the world burn when they stir things up.
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Loud shouters don’t have that much influence. The issue here is more the quantity and quality of the feedback than how loud they are. There is a lot of good constructive feedback on this thread that resulted in reconsideration. I still think they have not struck on the right solution though, and the level of complexity implied by Jon’s comments makes me think that it will create an evergreen topic on the forum. It’s impossible to please everyone but at least make it understandable without asking questions or reading documentation. If it means it has to have some new levels added in order to work well, do that. Then cap it off with an apology to the people legitimately disappointed instead of presenting it as a shiny new thing that everyone should love.
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The mind boggling thing to me is that Zwift have had nearly a decade to think about this and come up with a system that could achieve the goal of always having something to care about XP for.
Ever since the first Zwifters hit level 20 it was clear the level cap was an issue.
It’s not a difficult problem. Several good ideas have been put forward in this thread and previous ones.
“Banked XP” is a sticking plaster over the open wound of the capped system, and was never a good approach; but at least 8x acceleration wasn’t as much a kick in the teeth as a 1.2x acceleration.
They could address the inequities in the levelling system too. Faster/fitter riders who prefer the flat gain XP faster than riders who are slower/less fit or prefer climbing.
In terms of those faster flat riders, they stretch out the levels at a greater rate than other Zwifters. Maybe it should be time- or relative effort-based rather than distance.
In any case, they have all the data about how much people ride, how far and how often. Surely it was possible to model the impact of the last levelling changes against the average Zwifter as well as the top 5% or whoever was levelling “too quickly”.
It certainly isn’t me.
Back on December 11th I said:
My 421,114 XP should put me on level 84 at 421,000 XP, but I’m on level 46. That starts at 139,000 XP. So I’ve more to “re-earn” than I’ve had “taken away”; 282,000XP.
Today I have 462,806XP and am “level 55” (my XP is good for level 88).
So in a little over 6 months I’ve gained nearly 42,000XP.
Given the difference between level 88 (461,000) and level 56 (197,500) is 263,500, even if I only need to get 80% of that (210,800), that’s still another two and a half years to get to the level my XP is good for now; and of course by the time I get there I’ll actually have more like 673,800, which is 82,800 more XP that I should even need to get to hit level 100.
It’s just bonkers.
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It sounds like the newest update at least removes those when you use the Ghost power up. Unfortunately, the fact that they specifically implemented this fix for use in one (rarely used) power up means that they’re unlikely to remove it entirely.
Greater XP for climbing (and not in workout mode) has been proposed before but was shot down by those who either don’t like climbing or at least not without their workout modes to keep the climb flat.
With the banked XP I had 2x acceleration from level 60 to level 98, despite having well more than 1m XP to begin with.
Now at level 107 by the tracking of how many times the progress indicator has looped. And I have over 1.5m XP. Far too complicated a system.
I am one of tje original zwifters. I normally ride in the winter. I have about 10,000 miles. I am level 48. What is the deal that someone with half the mileage is at a much higher level. It has become a video game and people scam the system to get to a higher level. Used to be a training tool for serious athletes. Its needs a refresh an the bot rides have become boring. For you entrepreneurs out there come up with a new training tool, and I am on it out with Zwift. Get rid of some of the worlds no one ever rides on like Richmond, London. Why not put a ride in the Colorado Rockies or in New England somewhere.
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10,000 miles isn’t that much especially if you’ve been around since the early days.
Maybe the new routes (the grade) might be good for robopacer groups.
I see plenty of people on those worlds - so while you might not want them anymore, someone else does.
There are various ways to increase XP without it being a “scam”, but I’ve never understood why a serious athlete would be that bothered by their, or particularly other folks, XP/level if they were using Zwift as a training tool. Surely it doesn’t matter as long as it’s assisting with fitness - unless they regard it as a video game.
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Hi Zwift - love the experience. I notice that the double XP earned (which I have through level 97 and on level 81 now) has not been showing up the past couple of days. I do have version 1.66.0 dated May 30, 2024,