RoboPacers - An Open Discussion

RoboPacers
161

I guess I don’t see how either of those are solutions to the problem being discussed. If the issue is the RP goes too hard for certain aspects of the ride (let’s say on hills) you don’t necessarily have another pacer bot that is going the power you want to teleport to - if you teleport to a lower pacer it is likely running at lower power than you want otherwise that’s the pacer you’d be riding with to start with. Then you don’t know when to teleport back to the new pacer, I can’t really imagine using teleport used as a way to skip hills yet somehow keep the power profile you’re looking for unless I’m misunderstanding.

Also, if you take a coffee break that does not allow you to keep moving at the wattage you want either. You basically need to stop pedaling or switch to very soft pedaling from what I understand of coffee break. I believe if you pedal normally the coffee break ends and you keep riding as normal.

162

That’s still not a solution though because all bots are on different routes.

Yet another solution: if you don’t like that route, then try the same bot on the other world (or… double check the map before you click ride from the main menu, and maybe don’t ride with an RP).

The point to me for teleport is being able to warm up, and then join A Constance… NOT something I can ride with, without a warmup.
This is exactly why this feature exists.
Most people, once warmed up, are absolutely capable of going up to a faster bot, by one or two steps… This is an actual solution.
Does it change the route? Yes. Should that matter; no… but also see my point earlier about longer hill climbs should be adjusted for; not a power bias purely set by grade. (ie: I know I can’t keep up with Constance on long climbs because the power is probably well into my Z6… but I can keep up everywhere else once warmed up)

Again, I fail to see how changing my height/weight on the fly are solutions here…
Where; once I fall outside of that zone, where I’m with the now slower bot than I’m familiar with… I’ll breakaway and never see the bot again because my w/kg was shunted downwards by 0.5w/kg and my height would be dropped decreasing my drag a fraction of a percent.

Where on the opposite end of the scale; folks that are heavier than the bots, will now have to ride with faster bots; and once they fall out of that “adjustment zone” will get dropped like a rock off a cliff when their w/kg falls off from what the RP is, because they’re with something that’s higher than their actual w/kg.

None of this… makes any sense as to being a solution.

You’re talking about altering people’s w/kg, something EVERYONE here should be intimately familiar with… and wrecking it.
How can that be any sort of actual solution?

Again, the best answer to that is:

  1. Personal ghost partner (which doesn’t exist).
  2. Don’t ride with a RP because you don’t like the route or whatever.
  3. Workout mode, and adjusting workout bias.
  4. Make better use of Teleport/Coffee break.

If none of the above… then see Solution 2… don’t ride with the RPs because they don’t fill your needs.

RP’s aren’t meant to be a catch-all.

163

My response didn’t say anything about altering people’s weight/height. It did however say that coffee breaks, and teleportation didn’t solve the problem being discussed - and I explained why that is. “Not using a RP” and “workout mode” don’t either if what the person is looking for is an always available group ride at a reasonably consistent pace.

164

Did something change? I don’t remember any robopacer rides on Epic KOM recently.

I mean I’ve been away riding IRL in France, but last time I remember riding epic KOM with a pace partner was with 65kg Amelia Anquetil at 4.2w/kg.

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I haven’t seen them on a climb as big as Epic KOM in a long time. (Not including the event on the Alpe but that was also some time ago).

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Hence my suggestion to introduce two new RPs that run a 24/7 Group Training ride. One of them set at Zone2 (say 65% of FTP), the other at Zone 3 (about 80%). Combined with what I think is a +/- 25% FTP bias adjustment that you can make in the CA in a group workout, you could ride steady state at just about any power level you desire.

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167

it’s RAAARE, but they’ve been up Epic before. (and as Aaron said, ignoring Alpe as they do that every once in a while too, probably more often than Epic to be honest)

It really is once in a blue moon kind of situation; but it does/has happened.

I guess I missed then the “other” issue then and was stuck on the altering of height/weight.

But the point remains; the bots cannot, and will not be a catch-all for these kinds of solutions.
Group rides aren’t always steady paced rides; so even those don’t “compete” with the RP’s, nor can they.

Some group rides do stick to one pace the whole time; but if you can’t find one, I find that absolutely impossible, knowing that there are literally 100+ group rides every day, 24/7.

Once again though I fail to see why you have to ride with a RP, why…

I can’t think of the last time I ever joined an RP and saw a conversation going on between strangers out of the thin air; not like what you get on group rides.
Most I ever see are folks popping out of group rides saying their goodbyes and the likes, or a short hey how you doing, haven’t seen you since yesterday!

And I’m sure ZHQ absolutely has the data to look at too, that not much conversation probably goes on for extended periods around bots. If anything, it always seemed to me like people got angry when other people spoke in public on Zwift for… some reason.

But I … cannot fathom an event group ride doesn’t fit anyone’s normal needs.
Even if it were so; I fail to see what an RP can / could offer over most generic [same-pace] group rides, other than extended ride times.

There are some good things on this thread; but there’s also a mess of folks wanting wild tweaks that solve 1 thing for them, but introduce 5 flaws for someone else.

Genuinely the best thing here so far has been the discussion of client-side, adjustable, RPs for themselves / customizeable club/group rides.

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I think this is a pretty cool idea. For it to work they would probably have to put an entry point to it on the home-screen at the same level as the 24/7 Group Rides (to ensure enough people see it and join in - if it’s buried nobody will find it).

So you’d have the current 24/7 Group Rides, and alongside those an always-on social endurance and tempo group workout that is centered around a certain percent of FTP - designed so you can easily jump in and out of these whenever you wanted to.

There could be “some” dynamics within the ride on hills/descents, but the dynamics would be designed to stick within some range in the zone the person chose to work within, if things get too high, or too low you can just use the FTP bias adjustment and carry on. These rides would also keep the drops game as an added incentive.

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170

This would be great.

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Because it is a solution, as some of us has written previously. You don’t need it? Fine, don’t use it. I need it. Dan need it. A lot of other heavy riders need it. Using teleportation for this is just a bad idea.

Again: It’s a checkbox that you can use in a game which allows more people to have more fun; what’s not to like? Don’t use it if you don’t like it.

Your argument of “and once they fall out of that “adjustment zone” will get dropped” is simply not valid. If I can ride with Coco when I set my weight to Cocos, I don’t get dropped. It’s simple as that.

Using a lower w/kg RP is not a good solution either as shown in previous posts. If you are far from the RP weight, you get a disproportionate penalty on climbs. And since you can’t pick a 130 kg RP, the only thing we are left with is teleportaion which for most of us simply is not enjoyable to do for every hill.

One additional advantage of such a checkbox is that RPs abobe Maria would probably get an influx of new riders; it seems Maria and Miguel are pretty heavily populated, while some of the higher RPs are not (but that may just be my sample size of two times I have ridden with Coco now).

I honestly don’t understand why some people in here are against an option which would clearly make the game more enjoyable for heavier riders. It’s not because Zwift is realistic anyways (come on, drops with anvils, boosts, etc?), so why not just make is as enjoyable for a wider audience as possible?

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Completely agree!

173

Just a thought, would something like a rubber band work like it uses now on group rides/ training? So if you start to fall off the back it pushes you back up to the PB. It seems like zwift has the right intentions, but are listening to a smaller portion of their platform…

174

My free rides are exclusively with pacer groups which I find much more engaging than solo riding. I would like-
dynamic pacing to be maintained (to keep it feeling more natural)
a middling group size- too small and its less engaging, too big and it’s unwieldy with riders appearing/disappearing on/off screen
(very) minor points-
some increased variety in routes
improved chat function- as discussed above pacer advertising events etc

for me the dynamic pacing works well as I’m well within my comfort zone riding with the low C/top D bots. It makes it much more engaging but I’m never in danger of getting dropped. I appreciate that might not be the case if I was on the limit trying to keep pace with a bot

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175

All my riding is with RPs, only flat routes.

Since PD4.1, advertised wkgs appear way off: for example, a RP ride at 2.7 is 3.1 for me. This seems a problem for lighter riders in general since PD4.1. One solution would be to state expected wkgs by weight (eg in bands - below/above 65kgs). You must be able to see this in your data, so should be able to select the most appropriate bands accordingly.

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176

It isn’t, you aren’t thinking about how it affects everything, you’re thinking about the selfish solution it gives for you as a solo rider.

As said; you can’t approach the RP’s with a change like this which grants a single solution for one person, and creates 5 more for others.

You say that if you set your height and weight to Coco; you won’t get dropped.

But you’re talking about a system that dynamically changes your height and weight (aka “cheats” physics), in a temporary hoola hoop space around bots; just so you can hang with a single bot…
Yes you’re talking about it being a checkbox, which is individual… but here’s where things go wrong.

If you’re talking about saying you have to cheat your weight, to ride with a bot, that means you’re now cheating your w/kg, and when you’re doing that, it generally means you’re going to be pulling more power than what most people will expect.

I warm up with Coco; do you know how often I’ve had to drop from riding with Coco because of so many high powered front-runners ruining the pack speed?

LOTS

Again, you aren’t looking full picture and how it affects OTHER people.
By more / heavier people that join Coco, basically means people like me who are used to a specific pace, are confused and can no longer ride with Coco, because she’s being pulled along like a time trialist by people rocking 300 watts out the nose of the group, increasing the ground speed by 2-3mph more.

What it sounds to me like is that you want a RP that doesn’t have climbs because the w/kg gets too high on the climbing sections.

So… better solution:

  1. RPs that don’t dynamically change their power.
  2. RPs that are on Tempus Fugit (or a new world/location) 24/7

Neither of those solutions give others problems; like what you’re talking about.

I hope what I’m saying makes sense about how EVERYTHING affects others; and some solutions for some folks, create bigger issues for so many others.
You may not think this is the case; but I can assure you, and ZHQ (or even just searching on this forum), there is plenty of data of how fast some RPs are some days versus others; and it purely comes down to high power folks, sitting out front of the RP dragging them along.

Instead of going to a different bot.

If anything; there could be a popup saying “Hey it looks like you’re riding out the front too much, would you like to go to a faster bot?”

177

So put the RPs on TT bikes.

178

Then the only downside is people once again pushing the pace can suck people away from the RPs faster; which means some may have to put in even less effort some days (when the pack is large), or a bit more (when the pack is small).

It would be an interesting test though I guess; but I imagine the consensus would end up people thinking the RPs are going too slow; due to the still large draft of the blob.

179

I think James mentioned they tried TT bikes for the robo pacers and it caused issues (must have been a long time ago, long before all the new bots were introduced), I don’t know what those issues were however. Does anyone remember that?

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There was a brief period where the PPs weren’t getting draft off other riders (not due to being on a TT bike, some other technical issue). It was carnage.

181

Teleport is great, a real game changer for the bots and you dont need to use coffee break, just stop, then teleport back to the bot ! I’m not sure many have grasped it’s usefulness.
My use case, in general is -
Warm up on a free ride route, then depending on how I feel will join a “starter” Bot, see how I’m going then after a few KM move up again. Then as I tire work my way back down the Bots and back into free ride to warm down.
I’ll be looking at 40 to 100km total.

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