Pack Dynamics 4.1 - Test Events

Thanks guys.

Glad I wrote up what I was seeing now!

3 Likes

The last time this was reported I believe it was a version mismatch like you pointed out.

1 Like

@xflintx - Is the plan to roll out PD4.1 once everyone has a chance to get the latest update (1.46)?

going to be switched on Sunday night Pacific time

It has been confirmed here Eric.
But yes, I guess this fits with everyone ensuring they are on latest version before making it fully live

since it is already in use in Makuri, I’m guessing it is just a server side switch and the game client already has the necessary code.

1 Like

For everyone to get on the latest update is one consideration yes. The other is that the Pacers reset every week on Sunday night PST/Monday morning EU/UTC, and enabling it just ahead of Pacer reset will ensure there is no odd behavior in those groups due to differences in pack dynamics versions, which is something we’ve seen in the past.

4 Likes

@DavidP

Can you give a recap on the functional changes from PD4.0-4.1. There has been a lot of minor adjustments between the 2 during that time frame.

Also is PD4.2 or PD 5 going to be in the works after PD4.1 launches?

see 1.46 update thread

2 Likes

[quote=“Mike, post:524, topic:607051, full:true, username:Mike_Rowe1”]

Can we elaborate more on what is “attacking” vs “high Draft situation”

The two are not mutually exclusive. Rider A pushing 1000 watts at 55mph, with rider B doing 900 watts at 56 mph on his wheel, is both in a situation where the rider is attacking and in a high draft situation.

Good to see the updates!

Hoping to see

  1. Less CdA penalty to large riders. IRL I can hit 40 MPH on barely -2 deg downhill easy, in Zwift I full on sprint into a -6 degree downhill and barely break 30MPH.

  2. Much less hysteresis in large packs. Riding in a large peloton right now is like a freaking bouncy castle, you’re way off the front for 2 seconds then way off the back completely dropped in the next 2 seconds. Less flying off the front then shooting off the back and rinse and repeat would be much better experience.

  3. More instantaneous response to increase in power. There was that test from GPLama that Wahoo direct connect power is an advantage due to 10hz refresh rate on power, vs 1 second. This is simply a well known side effect of Euler integration with different step sizes. Good news is you can make some assumptions here about the substeps by looking at how people ride IRL. So go make some assumptions about the substeps.

No, unless something egregious needs to be fixed. PD4.1 should be solid for quite some time into the future.

Think to real life racing for the examples here: attacking would be attempting to break from the group for your first breakaway, attacking the breakaway, attacking on a climb, etc. Essentially any instance where you’re attempting to dislodge yourself - either solo or with some additional riders - from any other group. High draft would be around a lot of people.

The two will have some overlap as you point out, and the changes should account for that.

Happy to read that we can close this topic soon…Test Events are in the past :smiley:

4 Likes

Yes they are mutually exclusive. Because “attacking” is only a situation considered when you are not drafting.

By the way, speaking of dynamic CdA changes. One thing I forgot to mention.

They are not applied in Time Trials, either team or individual.

3 Likes

There are plenty of times we are attacking, we are also in draft.

  1. The simplest is when I am trying to overtake a rider, while still behind them. I am attacking them, trying to get in front, but I am in their draft. (Using this definition for an “attack”. " An attack is when a rider attempts to pass another rider or group of riders to get ahead. A successful attack is called a [breakaway]"
  2. Overlapping. You are rider 1. And you are doing a breakaway on a crit course. You can be attacking the peloton but will be in staggered amount of draft while you overtake lapped riders.

Is “attacking” still defined as increasing your power over your last 10s average?

I’d worry less about the specifics and actually try some PD4.1 races and see how it feels. If it feels fair and fun then that is the main thing.

8 Likes

From a PD4 race but it’s the same brake as is in 4.1 and the PD4 thread is dead. Watch as I get braked, at 315w, while steering across the back of the field.

2023-08-19-07-21-23

@DavidP

You are cruising with 0 Watt, accelerating to 331 Watts and steering across - perhaps you were to fast and would ride in another rider from behind (the gap seems to be very small)?

1 Like

I was moving into open space in the back of the pack. “Going from high to low draft” is supposed to keep you from cruising through the front of the pack. To brake people at the back moving into open space is inappropriate.

Plus all along I’ve complained of getting braked at the back and side (I have a clip of that from today too) and told that it’s not actually happening or a problem.