everyone ends up in the same category eventually brother
Iâd like to add a case for the guys at Zwift to consider as part of the new ranking system.
Disclaimer up front: Iâm in favour of fair racing. Iâm not a fan of sandbaggers. I think people should race at their âcorrectâ level. I think a results based system is likely to improve racing. I accept thatâs a tough thing to get right.
Hereâs the type of thing any new system has got to stop, rather than just concentrating on âsandbaggersâ
One of the teams I captain/manage for Level has just had a rider DQd in a ZRL C cat race for âexceedingâ category limits - code 7. He finished 29th out of 73 riders, was the 4th of our 6 riders across the line and we actually had the race winner.
He averaged 234w for the race with a 20 min power of 243w. The guys finishing behind him in 30th and 31st place had average powers of 275 and 292w and 20 min powers of 280 and 295w.
The relative weights of the 3 riders are 68, 93.5 and 102kg respectively.
Heâs now been told by WTRL to âconsiderâ racing in Cat B, where we are convinced on current form heâll be smashed to pieces in ZRL races. âConsiderâ seems to mean that he can no longer ride for us in ZRL.
I appealed against the DQ. I canât say I got any sympathy from WTRL, but then I didnât expect any. It was pretty much âhere are the rulesâ, some words about ensuring fair racing and how he could carry on enjoying racing by moving up to Cat B. Our riderâs response was âOh well. Onwards and downwardsâ
I put in a 2nd appeal, pointing out that finishing 29th out of 76 would suggest that if he was trying to gain an advantage he had failed spectacularly. I also re-iterated the points made above about average and 20 minute power, but I just got the same reply.
I suggested on the Level Discord group we should send him on a training course to learn how to be a better sandbagger.
The key points for me here is that weâve DQd a guy who finished outside the top third in the race and told him to move up to a higher category. He was competitive and enjoying racing in C cat. Thatâs unlikely to be the case in B cat. And if weâre DQing the guy who finishes 29th, what are the riders 1 - 28 doing that allows their results to stand?
We have no choice but to accept the proposal that he âconsiderâ moving up to B cat. We wonât be launching any further appeals. But this is surely the sort of edge case that brings a categorisation system into disrepute?
I hope that Zwift are already aware of cases such as this, and that the new system provides fairness to cases such as this, as well as weeding out sandbaggers who ruin the races for people at the sharp end of racing.
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If you are making the podium on a regular basis then you should be moved up a Cat in my humble opinion. But that is just what I think 
âŚ
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He probably should avoid zrl to be honest. Itâs probably the worst racing series in terms of the number of riders sandbagging so the top end of each division is super hard to win. So many strong riders that could race up but are happy to cruise in their current category.
Hopefully ranking improves this as that would be massive plus to zrl if it used a ranking system.
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It is a function of what he is able to do, not where he place. He demonstrated he can do the power that exceed the limit.
His going overpower mean while the didnât score high, he was actively towing this behind. That impacts the race.
Now he does need training in racrecraft. If he can hold above cat limit power and get drops mean he is riding as if this was an itt race. âLet me go threshold from start to finish.â Good luck not getting drop, when people hit the corkscrew at z7 and he find himself with an empty tank.
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I disagree.
I DSâd the race and could see where he was from start to finish.
I think you should read and reconsider
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Even behind a rider now you can waste watts. Eric at Zwift insider wrote this. If he is doing above cat limit, and riders ahead of him is doing .5 w/kg less, I imagine he must have done something wrong.
he is also lighter than your average c rider. He will get promoted before most other riders
Having not seen this race but i have seen quite a few top c races from zrl with the front all pushing 3.3-3.4 20 mins itâs quite possible he had to push more which then tipped him over.
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As always, power limits are a poor indicator of racing performance and need to be replaced with a proper results-based ranking system - one that includes lowering rankings for placing poorly as well as safeguards to keep sandbaggers from intentionally lowering their rankings.
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He is lighter and would have needed to generate higher than average w/kg to keep up. But not to the degree that he would have cat up in mid pack, if he didnât do one of the two or both, towing and pushing wasted watts behind a rider. I regularly ride against riders that are 20kg more than me and still can get a fair amount of w/kg saving drafting them.
His weight likely worked against him here, but shouldnât be detrimental
Just before Zwift Racing Scores were removed from Zwiftpower this week, yours and mine had dropped from ~700/650 respectively to ~613, due to inflated scores from racing the odd race in higher categories dropping out of our 90 day history.
Just like me, your Zwiftpower Race Rank is going to get a bit weaker in the next day or two, because we both have more âgoodâ results about to fall outside 90 days from racing in higher categories⌠Which would have further weakened our Zwift Racing Score (my guess to easily under 600, right in mix with many stronger Ds).
Thereâs plenty of us getting smashed in B - Im interested why your rider is different and shouldnt get smashed? Is there something im missing?
Think I was 70/85 this week - Dropped after 14mins or so⌠That is the current scope of racing in B. Zwift have tried to sanitise A Cat to the detriment of all the other categories.
But you are also right, be better sandbagger is the answer - Its the system that has been built and what it encourages and rewards.
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Bit of a ballache but at the very least he can at just join another one of your B teams if he wants as CE is not stopping him from entering his category
Yup, but until I donât see riders in upper B and A lower than me, the rank score is in my book broken.
Podium is just a function of the number of riders in the pen. Riders can be selective in their race and podium every A race by virtual of lack of riders.
stop trolling. you know what he means there is plenty riders out there that are podiuming in competive races race after race.
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Iâm not advocating that anyone gets smashed in B.
I got smashed in B myself in the morning. Voluntarily as one of our Atlantic zone teams need a rider.
Not bad for training. Not sure Iâd recommend it as the best racing experience. And it doesnât provide a case for the existing category system.
Go back to my point. How can we have a system that DQs a guy who finishes 29 out of 73?
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Just saying itâs not all equal. Chances of podium in A is higher than D, is higher than B and C.
Riders doing C and B have to battle a much larger field on average.
The idea of top 3 challenge is different per cat.
Thatâs what we are going to do.
But that wasnât the point of my post
I know but i think you either missed the point of his post or are puposley trolling.
The type of rider we are referring to are those that podium nearly every race in competitive races.
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