Results/ranking based categories NOW!

The points inflation and weighting by events problems are already solved elsewhere. I’m sure there are other similar systems, but the FIS ranking system, for example, works for events with large number of starters, uses best 3 ranks from top 5 event finishers to establish event base points, is asymptotic to zero (it’s a lower-is-better system, and racers gravitate towards zero without ever reaching it), and has a built-in points penalty system to cater for race type/duration (used in Nordic events). Racer points are based on best 5 events in last 12 months, which automatically makes your points degrade if you don’t participate in events to a certain regularity.

Forgot - individual points for an event are based on the race base points (3 best ranked in top 5), race penalty, and the ratio of an individual’s time over the winner’s. So no matter the race length or your placement, you always have an incentive to be as fast as possible, regardless of your position in the race. In other words: finishing within 1% of the winner’s time pays the same, regardless of the number of other racers between you and the winner.

The wheel exists, it does not need to be invented.

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The points inflation and weighting by events problems are already solved elsewhere. I’m sure there are other similar systems, but the FIS ranking system, for example, works for events with large number of starters, uses best 3 ranks from top 5 event finishers to establish event base points, is asymptotic to zero (it’s a lower-is-better system, and racers gravitate towards zero without ever reaching it), and has a built-in points penalty system to cater for race type/duration (used in Nordic events). Racer points are based on best 5 events in last 12 months, which automatically makes your points degrade if you don’t participate in events to a certain regularity.

Forgot - individual points for an event are based on the race base points (3 best ranked in top 5), race penalty, and the ratio of an individual’s time over the winner’s. So no matter the race length or your placement, you always have an incentive to be as fast as possible, regardless of your position in the race. In other words: finishing within 1% of the winner’s time pays the same, regardless of the number of other racers between you and the winner.

The wheel exists, it does not need to be invented.

Robert, let me make sure I understand this. Correct me if I’m wrong, but what you’re saying is that there is already a working system in another sport that is not particularly sensitive to the number of participants in a race (except maybe races with very few participants) and not sensitive at all to race distance or difficulty because of the 1% thing? A system, even, that promotes a reasonable (as opposed to unreasonable) amount of race activity and that also promotes making your best effort in every race?

Wow.

Let’s do some thinking here. To implement such a system you would need to collect a whole lot of data of course and then do many calculations on it. So let’s go through the entire list of types of datapoints needed for a model implementation to work. For all participants in every ‘official’ race Zwift would have to collect:

  1. PLACING
  2. FINISH TIME

Looking right now at the Zwift Companion app, to my surprise I get the impression that Zwift does in fact already collect every point in this list. There is more to the model but they seem to be just constants. Zwift even seems to store the above datapoints long term, because I notice that I can go back in time and see my placings and finish times in races way back. I can also look at my competitors’ placings and finish times in those races.

So then, this big project, if we imagine for a second that Zwift would set out to implement a FIS style categorization, would require quite a bit of work on their behalf. Let’s see now. We play that we are chief product owners here for a minute, so let’s rough sketch this project from start to finish.

First, they would need to add at least one, probably two new fields to every subscriber profile. Two new columns in some database table. One for the rank score. And then, for convenience, another one for race category. This could take several minutes to add.

Then you need a server side application to calculate the stuff going on in the model for every race and then update the subscriber profiles with any resulting changes. You also need to feed the race reports. This is way worse. It might take a skilled developer a whole day to code all of this, but let’s be generous and give them a full week.

Then you need to visualize this somehow to the subscribers. Some changes are needed to the interface. This would be a completely different team’s responsibility, although one that would normally work in parallel with the model application team. But it’s gonna take quite a bit of time nevertheless. Let’s give the frontend team a week of their own too, and let’s make it a week where nobody else does any job on the project.

The model is going to affect race generation too or there would be no point to it. Instead of the current free choice, subscribers will now be forced into a specific category (making ZP redundant). This could take a whole day too but let’s plan for the standard week again.

We’re up to 3 weeks already! And as we all know any project always takes longer than expected, even when you try to account for that fact. But let’s cut them some preliminary slack and make it a full month.

Then, or actually before you start any of the above tasks, you need to have a couple of data analysts look at suitable numbers of categories, project optimal category sizes, look into the seasonality issue, some validity reality checks on historical data, report all of this back to some manager etc etc. That could take a full month.

Even before the analysts come into play, and in fact during the entire project, management needs some time to sit and discuss everything in virtual meetings (it’s still corona days after all). Should we really do this? It seems so scary! Will subscriber numbers take a hit? Risk / consequence analysis plz! Etc. Ok, let’s do it! How do we plan this? Let’s do it so and so. How is the model application team progressing? Any blockers? Blah blah. And so on. Let’s give them another 30 days to spread out over the project, during which nobody else can work on this because they are waiting for meeting appointments and manager decisions.

So that’s 3 months. That means we can look forward to a launch on September 13. Yaaay!

It’s mainly a matter of which year. Will it be 2018 or 2019? Or even 2020?

I seem to have a bit of a cold right now. Very inconvenient. Or I could have cheated today, that was the plan, honestly. But I promise to be a good boy and continue cheating properly like the others as soon as I feel better and get the opportunity. Because I still can, since Zwift and even ZP will allow it.

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That system is flexible enough to be used for world rankings in alpine skiing (with events duration in the 2 minutes range and time differences in the hundreds of seconds) as well as in XC skiing, with events duration in the hour or two range, with minimum adaptation. If there’s one winter sport that’s similar to cycling, it’s XC skiing.

You don’t need a field for category. In database designs, you generally want to avoid having a field that’s a direct calculation of another field.

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I have lost all faith in Eric min, seems to lack passion to fix anything. Persistent problems remain unaddressed and the yearly interview on zwifcast is getting embarrassing with the lack of development. If this ever gets fixed it will be the community without which zwift would be a shadow of what it is. The zwift M O of minimum acceptable change is long running.

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the FIS system fit into the traditional model of earning points over a season to rank in tournaments? (I.e. world cups)

One of the things I conceptually like about an ELO type system is that it also works well for matchmaking in games across a wide range of players (frequent, infrequent, old, new)

I wonder if there is a single system which really fits both needs well. I am interested in the setting up a challenging ride with similarly skilled riders. But that is subtly different from appropriately progressing into higher ranks and more traditional racing season structures.

However, I totally agree that there is no need to reinvent the wheel. There are so many well developed systems out there. It’s likely just a simple parameter optimization problem to figure out which ones work best at predicting performance in Zwift.

That would be the World Cup points system, not the ranking system. Different animal. The ranking system is used to determine eligibility to events and event starting order, among other things.

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I have lost all faith in Eric min, seems to lack passion to fix anything. Persistent problems remain unaddressed and the yearly interview on zwifcast is getting embarrassing with the lack of development. If this ever gets fixed it will be the community without which zwift would be a shadow of what it is. The zwift M O of minimum acceptable change is long running.

I refuse to lose faith in Min because I refuse to lose faith in reason and fairness. I’m having this change, results based categories. Period. I will never give up. I am flexible with other things in Zwift and usually happy with whatever they come up with. But this is the game breaker and not up for discussion. It’s happening.

I saw something mentioned in the other big thread, the one where people are still stuck thinking inside the box (guys, you really can’t save the W/kg categories, they were doomed to begin with). And that’s the priorities argument. One reason why the category system is not reworked could be that staff resources are spent elsewhere, on issues and ideas that may seem to impact revenue more. You can’t fix everything at once, you have to make priorities. But I think that argument is dumb.

What is the standard onboarding scenario for a new Zwifter? First it’s hooking up and getting it to work at all. Then what? You probably just ride around a bit to get a feel for everything. I know I did. Then you may want to take part of more structured functionality, so perhaps you try a workout on your own. You’re still a little scared to interact with other riders. But group rides or GWO’s seem fairly safe socially, so eventually you sign up for a group ride. It could be nice.

You want to fit in so you try your best to stay close to the group leader as instructed. And it really is a great experience. However, you notice that quite a few riders seem to ignore the group leader. You on the other hand are barely clinging on to her wheel for dear life. So you’re a little disappointed that what could have been a 100% positive new experience for you is overshadowed by what may be perceived as disrespect for the leader and in a sense the fliers also crap on your own effort - it’s so easy for them to go flying and doing so is sort of disrespectful also to you. At any rate it makes you feel bad about yourself although it really shouldn’t. So first contact with social interaction in Zwift wasn’t all positive. And you’re still just on trial…

Negative interaction between riders is a disaster for Zwift because then competitors like TrainerRoad and similar become options. I really get it why they have listened to group leaders and decided to create the Fence. I also heard a convincing explanation to why they had to drop it. And now I really understand why they are trying to find a way to make it work again after all.

Once you’re comfortable with attending group rides and you feel reasonably included, you might want to try a race, just to see what it’s all about since everybody is talking about them. Conscientiously you sign up to the right category. But once again you get crapped on by a set of other participants (the sandbaggers), whether your understand it or not. You end up feeling bad about yourself, again, and may decide to never race again. It wasn’t for you. You stick with the group rides and try to avoid the ones without a good blob.

Revenue follows these people. Treat them well and you will have revenue all over Zwift. Let other subscribers abuse them and they will hide away in nooks and crannies within Zwift where they feel safe.

Fix the categories. Results based categories now!

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Hi Andreas,
I commend you on your quest to improve the racing scene.

I totally agree.

I hope as we speak, Zwift is finalising a workable solution.
Good luck with your efforts and I hope you don’t run out of energy, or patience.
“Ride On”

ps I don’t think we need the fence back, just let the flyers fly. As long as the leader sticks at the suggested pace, everyone can be happy.

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ps I don’t think we need the fence back, just let the flyers fly. As long as the leader sticks at the suggested pace, everyone can be happy.

Well, I don’t mind too much either. In some very large group events like the ones we have seen during corona, it’s even a good thing to let fliers of all levels fly, since it results in a group ride that fits everyone fitness wise. I nevertheless think it’s good for group leaders to have the choice whether to use a fence or not. So I’m all for the efforts from Zwift to find a working solution.

I commend you on your quest to improve the racing scene.

Hey, what’s stopping you from fighting the good fight yourself? Justice and customer value needs YOU! Anyway, I’m on a temporary break where I have to ride outdoors (the horror!) but as soon as I get the chance I will continue to hone my skills in cruising Zwift races and to report on my cheating progress, if not here then at https://zwiftcruiser.blogspot.com/ which is under construction atm.

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Hi Andreas,
I think my first post asking for change to Zwift racing, was in August 2018.
None of my ideas/posts were anywhere near as well thought out as yours though.

I have mailed Simon Schofield of Zwiftcast on the subject and was glad to hear in one episode earlier this year, Eric Minn, taking of changes to the Zwift racing scene.

I realise Zwift is often extremely slow to introduce change, but I haven’t run out of patience, as I really enjoy all aspects of Zwift.

I sometimes think of dropping to a more realistic Cat for my ability, but have at the moment resisted.
I would really like to start at the bottom of a new Cat system (points based), and if I’m able, improve my position. Maybe one day.

Have fun outdoors.
All the best and “Ride On”

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