Sorry if I missed that, so a “pen” winner can still bags a podium? And a pen = a Cat?
I do like the rage quitters term.
The way I described it, the race organiser could determine the number of pens, and then the system would allocate riders by splitting up by rank. So if they chose 4 pens, it would be very similar to today, only split by ranking rather ZP cat (as determined by the rider not the system).
So here’s yet another thread about how to fix the problems with making race fairer on Zwift, especially for those outside of Cat A. And it’s actually quite a good one, with some really interesting initial ideas, plus some great improvement/amendment suggestions in the replies, but there’s one big problem…
ZWIFT DON’T CARE.
They’re never going to pay any attention to this, or any of the hundreds of other threads on this subject. Even if we were to come up with an absolutely perfect scheme for ranking riders and heck, maybe find a programmer who could give them the code to actually implement it, still nothing would probably happen.
Unless you’re organising a UCI event for Pros, Zwift have no interest in racing at all. It’s an inconvenience to them. The community has had to bodge together all sorts of fixes to make races work over the years with very little help from ZHQ and I can’t see that ever changing.
So please, let’s go on debating on here on our suggestions for how to make things better, but please don’t get your hopes up that it’s actually going to make any difference any time soon. Or is that zoon?
Sorry for being a massive cynic, but I’ve given up on these things ever being fixed. I want it to be sorted just as much as the rest of you do and these plans of James’ do have a lot of merit, but having seen so many similar threads for YEARS and yet still nothing from Zwift barring green cones that don’t really work (which are only used in maybe two races a day anyway), I’m just a little fed up.
Right so no podiums for cats so no incentive other than points - wouldnt work for me I’m afraid. Again, low quantity of competitors means I’d not advance - my last 12 races gained no points but I entered knowing that, but hopeful of podiums, which I got a few.
You would still have podiums of course. The goal is always to win the race. Where did I say no podiums?
When I asked ‘so a “pen” winner can still bag a podium?’ and you didnt say yes!
Anyway, rather than carry the conversation on (thanks for replying promptly btw), I’ll just stick with hoping for auto-cats based on ranking and leave it at that.
This makes perfect sense and I am 100% in favour of implementation as soon as possible!
Newbie here, and yes please on this implementation. If a new rider is unfamiliar with the acronyms and current category basics, racing is a struggle to understand. Make it easy to get a category and progress and more new riders will stick around. I’d much rather race with legitimate similarly capable riders, than be dropped or sandbagged.
What’s most interesting about James’ idea is that race categories based on a points ranking system can be implemented at the same time as the current race categories. So race organizers can pick which race classes to use (w/kg or ranking) and let the user community decide which system they prefer.
Last week, I had a race. 50 racers at the start, we finished only at 10. A lot of racers, for any reason, stopped the race and we don’t saw in the results. This is this cheating! In real life (IRL), if you started a race, if you don’t finished, you are DNF and you are in the results.Period!
This is not cheating unless they quit with the intent of skewing their own matchmaking results. I can sympathize with your point, but if someone quit because they physically couldn’t go on or because their spouse tripped over the power plug, are you going to ban them from Zwift for life?
Last week I was in a 173km race. Someone put me up to it, and it was a stupid idea. However, regardless, I think there were at least 30 people who started in the B category, and my friend thought as many as 50. Only 17 Bs finished the race (14 on Zwiftpower), and I was maybe 10th on ZP. So, I sympathize, and I agree that if we exclude DNFs from the results it will produce issues with calculating a proper matchmaking score. In that race, I would bet money that the Bs were just too spent. I thought most people went way too hard on the first few climbs and blew up later on. I was a bit more conservative with my energy, so I really only blew up in the last 11 km (which were the worst 11 km I have ever spent on a bike, because you can’t coast). However, calling DNFs cheating is incorrect.
Oh, and only one person in C finished. The organizer was trying to make the As and Bs do the full London PRL loop and the Cs and Ds do the half, but he messed up and made the lower cats do the full.
Hello Weiwen,
You are absolutely right. All racers who didn’t finished a race are not cheaters. I was a little bit frustrated because I know than few racers stopped and closed Zwift and dropped their activity in the garbage when things aren’t not they are expected .
But, I think that every racer must be in the results if he start a race. You don’t finish for any reason, you are DNF like IRL.
Alain
Envoyé de mon iPad
But, I think that every racer must be in the results if he start a race.
If we move to some type of matchmaking system, I totally agree. You are correct to point out that if the matchmaking doesn’t account for DNFs, it will penalize people.
If we stay with W/kg categories, I would still like to see this happen. I mean, I collapsed off the trainer on Sunday to see I was 13th out of 17 total finishers on the Companion app and I was a little demoralized at first. I know it’s a first world problem, and I know there are a bunch of bugs yet to be solved, but it would still be nice.
And just to be clear, I totally share your frustration.
I totally agree on using a matchmaking system and de current Zwiftpower system should be perfect for it. As a Starcraft 2 player for quite some time, where a great system is in place as well, I can say it works very well and it feels long-term rewarding to increase your rating.
As for people without a rating yet, I feel that the matchmaking races they would have to do can be quite underpopulated once such a system is in place. What if you let them race according to their rating but with invisibility for others and undraftable (while being able to draft themselves). These newcomers can then have a proper race experience while not impacting others until they get a real rating after 3-5 races.
Hi, I am a 60+ rider and what annoys me most about all this fuss is that a lot is being fiddled in our series. I don’t understand that some 60+ riders get higher or equal values than A and A+ riders and still do races almost every day without DQ. As a competitive road rider I know very well what the values of 60+ riders can be. I would still like to see more control on this by organizer and ZP. For the rest, top job!
Any system that will prevent sandbagging and intice more people to race should be looked at. A matchmaking process with zp points sounds promising.
My reason for giving up races is almost 100% that I see that many of the riders who I am supposed to be competing with in the same class are producing power numbers that are just way, way more than I can do…makes me feel totally demoralized, the races I do finish are where this doesn’t happen, where I can see that I am out raced by riders with better skills, tactics and power but not out of my league.
Even if Zwift gets racing sorted out with real cat enforcement and a more sensible assignment of categories based on ranking, there will always be quite a range of ability within each category.
I enjoy racing despite the huge current problems, because I go in expecting to be dropped by the lead group immediately, but look for a 2nd or 3rd group to form, do my best to keep up until the end, and then try to outsmart/out-sprint them to the line. Don’t care if its for 34th place, I beat those other 5 guys to the line and worked much harder than I ever would have on a ride on my own. Then check Zwiftpower and find out what the real race results were with the sandbaggers removed.
This is the right attitude to take. Why people expect to do well all the time confuses me. In real racing outdoors a top 3 is not often except for the tip of the spear. A lot of racers never see a podium. You get upgraded to where you are average or turn pro.
James, excellent idea. I also read the article in Zwiftinsider. Very nicely explained. All the comments are interesting from others and I share many of their experiences with the current racing system.
I’ve been on Zwift for just over a year and thoroughly enjoy it as an indoor way of maintaining my outdoor cycle fitness. What’s been surprising to me is that it’s made me a stronger cyclist outside. I haven’t been in the habit of commenting in these forums, but after reading so many heartfelt comments, particularly from those who ride at the lower cusp of the categories’ where being dropped and riding alone is so demoralizing to make you want to quit racing altogether. Not much fun and zero comradery there.
When I first started racing as a newbie, I had no idea. I registered with Zwiftpower because I was keen to see what it was about. It took me a long time to figure out what Zwiftpower’s purpose was. Zwift seemed to offer race results in the companion app which include all riders, but Zwiftpower only showed the registered riders. I continued to blindly sign up through the Companion App for any race in any category that suited me at the time. I didn’t always look at the results in Zwiftpower, thinking that the Companion App told the real story. Imagine my surprise when I logged into my Zwiftpower account to see that I had been suspended. Apparently, because I had been consistently (and ignorantly) racing in Category D with too much power. I contacted the ZP and pleaded guilty through ignorance and they reinstated me. Lesson learned and I made sure I only signed up for Cat C and started to pay more attention to the Zwiftpower spreadsheet of information.
I found out of course, that ZP has an invaluable amount to information on your power rating and race rating. This was very interesting to find out about and I read all I could about how it worked. I signed up for all types of races and often found myself on the C podium. Then suddenly found that ZP had upgraded me to Cat. B. What!? Seriously folks I’m not a Cat B rider. So I looked at all the numbers and sure enough I was consistently riding at 3.2 w/kg, and my FTP was barely at 200 watts. This just barely squeaked me over into Cat B. I thought about writing to ZP to say that if I have to race Cat B, then I will be riding alone in every race. But, I didn’t write. I took a few weeks off racing, too intimidated to join a Cat B race. Then I got over myself. Someone told me I earned a place in Cat B and I should take it and be proud of that accomplishment. So I started to race in Cat B. It was hard. My big goal was not to finish last. I started to research many of the races to determine the likelihood of not finishing last. If there were any riders with a FTP of less than 3.5 w/kg, then I joined and my race was with them. Someone has to be last in the race, and often that was me, but not always. Some days I was 2nd or 3rd from last! That was a big success for me! Hey, it’s Cat B!
I’m a light rider 61 kg, so try to choose races with some hills. As another strategy, I had read that the Zwift Concept bike was the fastest race machine out there. I joined the Everest Challenge and got the Tron bike. Maybe some of it is psychological, but I feel faster on the Tron bike cuz on screen, it just looks like you should be faster. I don’t like to let the Zwift Concept designers cool image suffer, so I tend to work harder to maintain that image. If I’m going to look fast, I better go fast.
Lately I’ve joined a couple of age category Masters races from ZHR and thoroughly enjoyed them. Have come very close to podium finish and am sure I’ll get there soon as the field for my age group is much smaller. Once in a while you just got to use the age card to boost your enthusiasm, but mostly I don’t subscribe to age category; if you’ve got the power, use it and join the correct category. Doesn’t matter if you’re 11 or 70 or male or female. So I have developed quite a respect for many riders that pour their heart and soul into a Zwift race. It’s hard. Everyone works hard. I know that a 40km race with a sustained pace of 3 w/kg takes it’s toll. Kudos to anyone who gets up off their doff and participates in that level of effort and still manages a sprint at the end!
I really hope that Zwift HQ does make these changes you’re talking about, it makes so much more sense using a ranking system. Simple and automatic rider compatibility would encourage more people to try racing and meet riders of similar abilities.
Great discussion. Appreciate all the comments and am always learning more all the time about this wonderful platform that Zwift has created.
Stay safe all and see you at the start line!
Great Idea!
I support a matchmaking system for races!
Its highly motivating!