Racing Score enabled in Zwift Labs events [July 2024]

What I’m getting at is ~500 feet of climbing over 14.8 miles is not a lot of climbing and even up Petit KOM, the stronger W/Kg (typically lightweight, unlike you and me [95Kg]) riders in the Racing Score pens are getting a significant advantage.

Now imagine what will happen racing alternative routes with ~40mins of racing such as…
Approx 5 laps of Rooftop Rendezvous (rolling)
Approx 2/3 laps of Grand Central (hilly)
Approx 5Km of Ven Top (mountain)

It’s not as if typically heavier riders with higher pure Watts are ditching the lighter strong climbers on flat routes like RGV; Crit City; Tempus Fugit; Innsbruckring etc.

At the moment it’s currently looking like we are moving from typically 4 to 5+ pens and from my own perspective, the weakest rider pen is including stronger racers than Category Enforcement.

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I tend to agree with this as well. I’m a heavy rider, and due mostly to a high 30 second power I have a seed score of 484. My best full gas effort up Petit KOM is above 8 minutes still. The lightweight C and B riders in the 400-575 could probably zone 2 their way up and drop me. I think the way it’s set up at the moment is great for courses like Tempus Fugit or Volcano Flat, or even Rolling Highlands, but anything with a sustained climb that lasts more than a minute or two is a wash for high power but low w/kg riders.

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I looked at the last time I went up that way … at 70kg and 245 watts … just under FTP … just under 7 minutes. In a race one would be hoping for maybe 5% above FTP for an effort in the 6 to 7 minute range, so maybe 6:30 or 6:45 is likely?

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Yeah that sounds about right and what I’d expect. My 8:17 was a specific effort for a segment of the month thing my team does as well so race pace it’s probably more like 8:30 for me. Losing 2 minutes on a sub-10 minute climb isn’t something I’ll be able to overcome I don’t think. I might just have to wait for my 30s record to drop off before trying any of these races.

Given the routes that exist in Zwift I’m wondering why 10 minutes was chosen. 30 second power is an obvious important factor but 5 minutes seems a lot more relevant to Zwift racing performance, as ZR.app figured out some time ago. Volcano, Titans, Temple, Petit are all under 10 minutes for most. And the few longer ones are generally in the 20+ timeframe.

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Zwift need to been seen doing something different to ZR.app

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I wonder if the 30 second is based on w/kg or raw watts.

Raw watts for both 30s and 10m

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interesting, seeing as mostly everything is wkg based for zwift that surprises me

From the FAQ:

“ We calculate a new racer’s score using a formula based on CP30s and CP600s power outputs–the max power you have for 30s and 600 seconds, or 10mins.

We then normalize the power by weight and make further adjustments based on our analysis to ensure the score is fair across various weights and performance levels.”

So 30s watts, 10m watts and weight are all used in the calculation

That is something I have been wondering also. I understand the 30s values in the calculation.
10min is already a bit doubtfull, but why the 20 min or 30 min values are completly ignored beats me.

Almost all races on Zwift are longer than 20 minuts and to get to the position to use that 30s power, you need to be in the front and be able to keep up with them. So 20 min or 30 min is the key factor to even be able to have a shot at the win.

So why not have the seed calculated on a combination of numers like
40% is 20 min value
30% is 30s value
15% is 5min value
15% is 10 min value

That would make much more sense imho.

For short races like the tiny or the hill climbs we can pretty much VO2, since the Tiny have proved that worked well.

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I think the current seed scores are a good place to start. I did RGV a few days ago and gained 8 points from a 6th place. As far as I can see I didn’t set any 30s or 10min personal records, so it maybe just from the finish result. This ZRS looks very good to me, and I hope that Zwift really looks at who is most complaining (prolific podium riders) and only looks at the data to make the changes needed to make this even better.

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The overwhelming majority of races are “sit in and sprint for the finish” which is why the 20 minute ZP categories were so bad.

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I know, that i why I added the 10 min, 5 min and 30s into the calculation.

imho you cant class riders without taking the most important value into the calculation.

If your 30s value rocks but your 20min not than you will never win.
If you have a good 10 min value but your 20 min is bad you will be struggling
If you have a good 20 min value but no sprint you will not win.
If you smash short climbs with your 5 min value but cant keep up due to a terrible 20 min value you will not win.

One alone isnt enough to do well in races, so that is why I thought of a combination of those values.

That’s the entire reason why using 20min has got racing into the state it is in - it puts everyone with the same relative ftp in the same race, so those with short term power then win when everyone gets to the line together.

Mixing the boundaries for racing will fix all of the seed issues… but zwift have to move away from the sit in & sprint borefests with the same people gaming the categories and little digital cups.

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I think Peter’s suggestion is that you may perhaps have legacy “D” riders that have a decent-enough 10minute power, that could be racing with legacy “A” riders now. But there’s no way in a longer race, that their 2.5wkg FTP is going to be enable them to sit in for an hour with the As to get to the final few miles of a race where their short duration power can compete. Sorry for the run-on sentence :slight_smile:

I don’t know if there’s any studies/data to suggest though that 10minute power can be or is directionally accurate enough to predict long term power. And/or, do we know for certain that Zwift abandoned any use of calculated FTP/zFTP in racing score assignments?

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The biggest issue with including 20 minute power in the calculation is that many people don’t regularly perform a maximum effort 20 minutes long. I know I haven’t in the last 3 months, and I’ve been racing regularly and mainly up a category.
Unless there’s a mechanism to ignore sub-maximal efforts it would mainly serve to drag down the scores of those who haven’t done it. Similar to the current issue of those who haven’t done a sprint having lower scores.

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I really like the idea of weighting a variety of power values. Not trying to overcomplicate things, but a one minute or two minute power value could/should be incorporated into the calculation.
30 second is really influenced by 15 second sprint efforts whereas a 1 minute or 2 minute power is the decider on a lot of courses.

Hey everyone - thanks for all the feedback in this first discussion. We’ve taken your input to start the next phase of this project. Let’s all move conversation to that thread.

I’ll lock this discussion now.