Race 1 felt like regular PD 3.0 to me.
Race 2 - No feedback from me, I took it easy at the back.
Race 3 & 4 - felt great in 90% of the time apart from two very weird glitches / sticky draft situations. Impressions:
Speeds were lower. Much less churn. Blob shape looked fairly natural to me.
As expected, sitting at the back of the big wide blob was still the best position to be in. As noticed by others, as soon as you fell into the thinner line at the back youād run into all sorts of issues.
Thereās a weird sticky draft which is much, much worse than before. Iāve encountered it in both mid pack and at the back.
Sticky draft #1 - Speeds drops from 45 to 40 out of nowhere. No one in front of me was āblockingā me doing less speed than the blob.
Sticky draft #2 - As Kayin stops in front of me, my speed drops from 52 to 48 despite doing >5.5 w/kg. It quickly goes back to 53 km/h at which point (11s into the video) without being blocked by anyone, the speed drops to 46-47 and gets stuck there. I was still doing >7 w/kg the whole time.
If we could get all the other effects weāve experienced but without this weird glitch, I think this might be a winner. If the only way to get rid of the churn is to introduce a massive sticky draft though, I think this is a step backwards.
Edit: Couldnāt add the youtube links so James did it for me below.
Much harder to stay with any group. Seems like no draft in the 2nd half and I was dropped few times. Would double draft prevent it?
Felt much like ITT when the blob strang out
Slingshot effect exagerated? Solo riders flew past me like a rocket with no chance for me to catch their draft. Then I was in opposite position when passing 15+ blob riders like rocket when riding just a little more power then them
Very strange, I felt the exact opposite in race 4. It was much harder for me to hold on, although I did keep getting caught in what felt like Sticky Draft.
Thatās what I experienced and commented on after the first test event on Monday, which I posted a video to in the previous thread (now locked) - no one else seemed to experience it then, but Iām pleased to know I wasnāt imagining it as several have mentioned it this time. It was definitely a problem for me.
Having tried Tiny Race Series for the first time today as a 3.99 Cat B enforced to Cat A I felt that this was much harder a race type for me to stay in touch with the lead pack. Double draft was non existent, couple with that Cat Enf it was a double handicap for a High B cat.
Selection of frame (Road to Sky especially) was irrelevant I had no benefit from Giant Gravel bike and lost over 20 places on 400m AdZ finish section.
Position in pack was too āstaticā basically where you joined it you more of less stayed in it, no real breakaways even from the 4.5wkg+ lead pack because they were closed down. No rest advantage in pack, if you slowed you got dropped.
It was akin to an iTT but with company, a flat out failure of a test for me, the ride lengths I think were too short to give PD4 itās full trial, I donāt think that I will repeat Tiny Race if PD4 is installed as a permanent feature.
I may have missed it but has anyone actually explained clearly what has changed?
Eg, if you are position 2 or 3 in a line with the leader doing 300W (as per Ericās TTT tests), do you need to do more or less to stay there compared to the previous dynamics? If you have a bunch all doing 300, what is the group speed compared to the previous dynamics?
If you canāt easily get past riders in front, is that the reintroduction (amplification) of sticky draft or what?
The previous dynamics change (less sticky draft) was clearly described and the improvement (at least in some respects) was obvious. I just donāt know what Iām supposed to be seeing this time.
Sounds like it has done the opposite to the draft though, making it harder.
Seemed that way to me watching videoās of this morning races.
Ill have a go in 35mins and see.
For me there wasnāt much āchurningā in normal races with PD3, I just think most people need to regulate their power output with changes in gradient better And most people donāt factor the lag in power on the pedals to effect in the game well. But that makes more gains for those that do and have practiced this well, which isnāt a bad thing is it?
That wasnāt my experience at all today as a lightweight mid-to-low cat C rider (no respite from start to finish, nowhere to benefit from even a few seconds of recovery, seemingly no draft at/near the back of any group I was part of). I think a few people have mentioned this, but it felt like Iād ridden 4 ITTs back-to-back.
I still think there may be value in applying PD4 to some of the Pace Partner rides as another beta test. This would be more of a controlled environment and you would have the PP acting as a benchmark. Iām sure plenty of people on here have a wealth of PP data to use for comparison with/without PD4.
Hi,
I tried the tiny races zone 1 and i should say that the new ideas are always exciting but this new pack dynamics just not realistic at all, you canāt stay in the draft at the back of the peloton so Iām actually disappointed with this update
I like the direction of PD4 but current implementation feels an extreme step too far.
Main issues are how hard it is for a pack of any size to easily stay together. Race 4 in particular was just a big long line for the first 40 riders, felt like no real draft from the rider in front, almost like an iTT.
Dynamics of the pack also seemed peculiar as soon as thereās any moderate downhill gradient and anyone lighter starts to go out the back because the draft does nothing to compensate for gravity. Obviously thatās true in real life but only if everyone had equal descending skill, I just felt there was no way to keep up at times on the downhill. Was putting out couple of hundred watts at front of a group on the flat then pushing 400-450w on moderate downhill and still going backwards while others around were doing much less power. That said, I see others experiencing the same dynamic in other places so perhaps itās not gradient related, more to do with being back of the pack.
Although there was more scope to breakaway it was hard to do it as a group, just feels like a collection of breakaway riders all working individually
the fundamental concept canāt work unless you pay close attention to what constitutes a āpullā. 1 second? 10? the bigger the group, the more likely at least one guy in it is gonna spike up to whatever the break are doing for a second or two and then the break is failing anyway.
I think with any new development that has such a big impact on rider experience & enjoyment etc (especially when racing) there needs to be some kind of controlled test environment. That way you get a better perspective of whatās actually happening. Otherwise, youāll simply get rider āaā saying it was a far better experience and rider ābā saying itās a disaster.
So far, obviously from limited experience, Iāve not enjoyed PD4, but that doesnāt mean itās not performing as intended. If the overwhelming response from the community is positive, then I can live with the fact that the shortcomings are entirely my own.
On balance, however, I think the overall response to PD4 has been (slightly?) negative.
This is a controlled test environment - itās only being used in selected events. Using it on pace partners would impact more than 30k people daily and would be waaaaaaaay too soon.
Do you know an estimate of how small the group of riders have to be for a slower pack speed?
Today we had +100 in Pen B and the pack speeds looked the same as in PD3ā¦everytime there is more than 50 people in a group the pack speed is at least 5km/h to highā¦and then there isnāt any draft effect because at 50km/h staying with the pack is hard work.
And most people donāt factor the lag in power on the pedals to effect in the game well. But that makes more gains for those that do and have practiced this well, which isnāt a bad thing is it?